Davidorban Agnon: I would like to welcome the Local Government Study Group on Vulcano!
Davidorban Agnon: We are now starting the meeting
Davidorban Agnon: Please everybody take your seats (or not)
Davidorban Agnon: except the last rows as those need loudspeakers which we are not using today
Davidorban Agnon: As Ashcroft, founder of LGSG
Davidorban Agnon: asked if it was possible to host the meeting of the group here
Davidorban Agnon: I immediately and gladly said yes, as Vulcano
Davidorban Agnon: is itself an experiment in community building,
Davidorban Agnon: , and experimentation.
Davidorban Agnon: The future of online worlds will depend on their
Davidorban Agnon: ability to show unique value to those inhabiting
Davidorban Agnon: them, and the work of groups like LGSG is very
Davidorban Agnon: important in shaping the evolutionary paths that
Davidorban Agnon: are going to be taken.
Davidorban Agnon: Thank you again for coming here!
Davidorban Agnon: Ashcroft, you have the floor. :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you very much, David :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Before we start the substantive part of the meeting...
Ashcroft Burnham: ...I need to get off this box, hold on a moment.
Ashcroft Burnham: That's better.
Ashcroft Burnham: As I was saying...
Ashcroft Burnham: ...before we start the substantive part of this meeting...
Ashcroft Burnham: ...I'd like to extend my thanks to Davidorban Aragon for very kindly hosting this meeting of the Local Government Study Group in his excellent auditorium here on Volcano.
Ashcroft Burnham: A big round of applause, everybody, for Davidorban :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks! :) VUlcano welcomes you all
Ashcroft Burnham: (It's :-D everybody...)
Dreamingen Writer: /applause
Ashcroft Burnham: "/clap"
Mondrian Lykin: /clap
Ashcroft Burnham: Anyway, thank you all very much for coming this Mayday bank holiday week-end...
Ashcroft Burnham: ...I hope that I'm not disturbing too many of your holiday plans :-)
Soul4sale Ferraris: (we don't get one of those in the States :-(
Ashcroft Burnham: To-day, we're discussing the second draft tools proposals for the Local Government Study Group.
Mondrian Lykin puts down the surf board
Dreamingen Writer: re you from the states?
Ashcroft Burnham: A brief reminder for those who aren't familliar, the Local Government Study Group is a group to make proposals for governance tools to be implemented in SecondLife, and try to persuade Linden Lab to implement them.
Astrophysicist McCallister: Sorry, still rezzin
Ashcroft Burnham: We have so far produiced two drafts of the tools proposals, and I'm hoping that we'll make a third sometime soon.
Ashcroft Burnham: At the last meeting, we were very lucky to be joined by Robin Linden, who seemed interested in our project.
Ashcroft Burnham: The format of the discussion to-day is that we'll go through the comments on the tools proposals that people have sent in in advance, then go onto any further comments that anybody here has.
Ashcroft Burnham: Before we do that, though, can everybody touch the flipchart to get an agenda, the tools proposals, and the various comments? :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll give you all a minute or so to do that...
Ashcroft Burnham: BRB
Davidorban Agnon: (There have been last minute changes
Davidorban Agnon: even if you had a previous version, please take it again)
Ashcroft Burnham: Right, I hope that you all have the paperwork that you need now :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: We'll now move onto the first set of comments by Pelanor Eldrich.
Davidorban Agnon: Thank you Ashcroft
Davidorban Agnon: I see that Pelanor has not been able to attend in person this evening
Ashcroft Burnham: Unfortunately, Pelanor can't be with us to-day, but he has left his tools ideas for us to discuss :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Is there somebody that would like to start commenting the suggestions?
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll hand you back over to Davidorban, who will chair the discussion on Pelanor's ideas. I'll say a few words on my thoughts on the matter in a moment.
Ashcroft Burnham: Over to you, Davidorban :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Ok
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks Ash for the introduction
Davidorban Agnon: Please all take a reading of Pelanor's
Davidorban Agnon: notes if you haven't already done so
Davidorban Agnon: as you see they deal with the trustworthiness
Davidorban Agnon: of the transaction datasets and digitally signed transactions for vcommerce in SL
Davidorban Agnon: If you would like to start commenting, please stand up, and I will call you by name on stage
Davidorban Agnon: Ash, you and I are never shy
Ashcroft Burnham: For the third draft of the LGSG tools proposals, I plan to split the tools into different sections, with Pelanor's suggestions in the "ancillary" section :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: There may be some refinements in detail needed (I'm not fully sure exactly what no. 2 means), but the overall idea, I think is good, and so, it seems, does everyone else :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: And welcome back Davidorban :-)
Mondrian Lykin: if I might, I think they're a little more than ancillary, in many senses they're necessary
Davidorban Agnon: thanks
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Davidorban Agnon: I haven't had the chance to hear
Ashcroft Burnham: Davidorban will now introduce the next commentor's comments, and then Kirsty herself, who is here, can say some words about them, too :-)
Davidorban Agnon: the comments unfortunately
Davidorban Agnon: but Ash,
Davidorban Agnon: if you don't mind
Davidorban Agnon: I would like to say two words
Davidorban Agnon: is that ok?
Davidorban Agnon: about Pelanor's ideas
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, about Pelanor Eldrich's tools? Yes, go ahead :-)
Davidorban Agnon: thanks
Davidorban Agnon: The issue of dependable datasets is very important of course
Davidorban Agnon: and as long as we are talking about a single grid
Davidorban Agnon: run all by LL it ties into the entire issue of LL being trustworthy itself or not
Davidorban Agnon: there have been issues of sever inventory loss
Davidorban Agnon: where the standard reply from LL of reading the TOS
Davidorban Agnon: since all residents are here at their own risk
Davidorban Agnon: didn't feel very enlightened
Davidorban Agnon: that is why being able to acccess the datasets
Davidorban Agnon: is also important in my opinion
Davidorban Agnon: but LL won't accept the liability going with it
Davidorban Agnon: since they do not have the capacity of running a lossless grid
Davidorban Agnon: and they would not be able to recover from all mistakes
Davidorban Agnon: that is why it is more important to document accurately
Davidorban Agnon: those elements
Davidorban Agnon: where the documentation can be the basis of a recovery
Davidorban Agnon: based on a good faith action by the part of a vendor
Davidorban Agnon: towards a customers
Davidorban Agnon: lost purchase
Davidorban Agnon: .
Davidorban Agnon: I hope this makes at least a little sense with respect to the previous comments!
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you Davidorban :-)
Davidorban Agnon: would you like to come on stage
Davidorban Agnon: Now Kristy,
Davidorban Agnon: and illustrate your proposals
Davidorban Agnon: ?
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks!
Davidorban Agnon: Please welcome Kristy!
Davidorban Agnon: :D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Kristy Laval: so. i'd like to comments on the two of my documents
Kristy Laval: starting with the one that you received earlier
Kristy Laval: the second was only sent to ash late today. so my appologies if you have not read it (it is in the flipchart anyway, please grab it)
Kristy Laval: so.
Kristy Laval: not entering in to every of my notes. i thing an important topic in the second roposal is the ability to have several level of governements
Kristy Laval: + we should also think of homeless residents
Kristy Laval: as this is majort difference between sl/rl
Kristy Laval: here in sl, being homeless is not as a probleme as in rl. but being homless should not mean that sl residents have no governement to protect them
Kristy Laval: therefore, that is one of my points. the governance tools should also take into account those homeless sl residents
Kristy Laval: another comment on the second draft is that the governement should not be put in place of changing witjout notice the tax level that it wants to collect
Kristy Laval: as for the rest of my comments on the not. i welcome your questions but i waont enter here into details of each
Kristy Laval: as for my second paper
Davidorban Agnon: Thank you Kristy!
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Davidorban Agnon: Please go ahead with your other comments
Davidorban Agnon: on the second paper
Ashcroft Burnham: Can we have comments on the first before we move to the second? There's a lot to take in on the first :-
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Ye Ash
Davidorban Agnon: let's do it like this
Davidorban Agnon: do you agree Kristy?
Kristy Laval: this paper describes my view on tools that should be built using what we currently have at hand in SL
Kristy Laval: ok. go on
Kristy Laval listens
Davidorban Agnon: Let's take comments and questions now on your first set
Davidorban Agnon: So let's do it differently now
Davidorban Agnon: no need to stand up
Davidorban Agnon: just ask your question
Davidorban Agnon: or say your comment in the public chat line
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Mondrian Lykin: may I?
Davidorban Agnon: Please!
Mondrian Lykin: ok
Mondrian Lykin: I agree on the need of establishing which kind of government is one linked to, especially when it comes to disputes
Mondrian Lykin: but on the other hand, there willl always be an amount of people who are not linked to any government because as we said, this is all on a volountary basis
Mondrian Lykin: so I think we should find another way to "link" people to government, if they don't chose one themselves
Mondrian Lykin: so yes, people can chose gov't even if not linked by owning land in a specific region
Mondrian Lykin: but if they don't, how would we solve this? I am adding on Kristy's 1st point
Ashcroft Burnham: May I say a word about landless residents, government, citizens, non-citizens, and powers? :-)
Mondrian Lykin: please :P
Davidorban Agnon: Yes, Ash
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks for your comments Mondrian
Mondrian Lykin: :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Kirsty raises an important point; that is that governments, in order to be useful, have to be able to deal with all Sl residents, not just those who own land.
Ashcroft Burnham: There are two sorts of ways in which a government can deal with that under the tools that I propose.
Ashcroft Burnham: Firstly, there is the notion of the liquid escrow.
Ashcroft Burnham: Under that model, a person could become a citizen of a government by depositing with that government a sum of money in Linden dollars as an escrow, which the government could forfeit as an enforcement measure.
Ashcroft Burnham: However, to make the forfieture of the sum a meaningful penalty, the person in question should be able to *use* the deposited amount whilst it is deposited.
Ashcroft Burnham: I won't go into all the technicalities, but that actually works out as the exact functional equivalent of just giving the government the power to take away L$x (where x is the amount of the escrow, which can be configured) at its discretion.
Ashcroft Burnham: That is an alternative to the land escrow system, whereby a person who owns land can become a citizen of a government by putting her or his land under the control of a government, which could, in certain configurations of government, ultimately forfiet that land.
Ashcroft Burnham: Those two forms of escrow forfieture are examples of enforcement against citizens.
Ashcroft Burnham: However, governments also need to have some (albeit more limited) enforcement powers against non-citizens: after all, real-world governments can enforce their laws against foreigners as well as natives :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Two possibilities arise.
Ashcroft Burnham: Firstly, a citizen of government X could be sanctioned by government X for breaking a law/rule/norm of government Y, in pursuance of an agreement between government X and Y that they will enforce each others' norms.
Ashcroft Burnham: So, the escrow forfieture enforcement powers could be used against non-citizens in those circumstnaces.
Ashcroft Burnham: For people who are not citizens of *any* government, or any government with an agreement, there is the simple remedy of banishment, which is an enforcement measure against all persons :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Banishment can be made more effective by being reciprocated through multiple governments.
Ashcroft Burnham: That's how the tools as designed deal with the landless and non-citizens :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: And I think that it's time for some other people's comments now... :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Thank Ash
Ashcroft Burnham: BRB
Davidorban Agnon: Other comments from the audience?
Davidorban Agnon: Just a little one from me..
Davidorban Agnon: it is interesting to note how technical the issues that Ash raises are
Davidorban Agnon: and that it will be very important to find the language
Davidorban Agnon: that talks to all residents
Mondrian Lykin: what do you mean by "language"?
Davidorban Agnon: including those 99% and more who don't participate actively in the government
Davidorban Agnon: Kristy, please
Davidorban Agnon: do you want to reply to Ash as well?
Kristy Laval: ash. thank you for clarifying
Kristy Laval: and indeed escrow is probably the good way to make enforcement to non-land owners
Kristy Laval: my was was also (if not mainly) that gov are not only ment to make enforcement against citizens,
Kristy Laval: but should also defend them when it is needed
Kristy Laval: lets take an obvious example
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Kristy Laval: say all governements are elected and defent land owners
Kristy Laval: there might have a bias to favour land owners overs non-land owners
Kristy Laval: if non-land owner do not have the opportunity to pick a governament to defend them. there will be no gov X sttling woth gov Y in cases
Kristy Laval: a land-owner is inconflict with a non-land owner.
Kristy Laval: thus, my coment that the tools to be created should be able to take care of those residents
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks for this reply
Bru Yang: ehm.... question
Davidorban Agnon: Please Bru!
Bru Yang: I'm sorry if it sounds quite provocative but...
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Davidorban Agnon: No problem
Bru Yang: 1) Why would I want to be part of a government?
Davidorban Agnon: Ash, Kristy?
Davidorban Agnon: Who wants to take that?
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, Bru, that sort of issue was dealt with comprehensively at the last two meetings :-) This is a meeting to discuss the details of the tools...
Davidorban Agnon: (I have my own views too)
Bru Yang: oh sorry
Davidorban Agnon: Do you mind to give Bru just a short answer?
Davidorban Agnon: there's got to be one
Bru Yang: ok, I'll look for minutes of the previous
Mondrian Lykin: Bru: http://lgsg.wetpaint.com
Ashcroft Burnham: (See http://lgsg.wetpaint.com for more information on the last two meetings, including transcripts. Also have a look at "Benefits of governments in virutal worlds" linked on that page) :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: (The short answer is to refer to that document :-) )
Davidorban Agnon: (not valid)
Bru Yang: fabulous: just in case it hasn't been touched as a topic previously....
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: What's not valid, Davidorban - the link?
Davidorban Agnon: Bru, you have a question no 2 as well=
Bru Yang: 2) What if I'm a homeless / independent (not part of any government) ? I shouldn't be disadvataged
Davidorban Agnon: ?
Davidorban Agnon: Ash, your short answer :)
Ashcroft Burnham: (Sorry everyone: lag. Oops...
Ashcroft Burnham: )
Ashcroft Burnham: There's a sense in which those two questions conflict, Bru :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Ash, Kristy? Do you want to answer Bru's second question?
Ashcroft Burnham: On the one hand, you're asking, "what are the advantages of bieng in a governent?"; and on the other, you're asking, "why should there be disadvantages of not being in a government?" :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: I think that Kirsty wants to say something on this topic, too :-)
Bru Yang: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: So, I'll sit down, lag allowing...
Kristy Laval: i think people should be free
Kristy Laval: actually, they are quite free in sl
Kristy Laval: and if anyone would not think any kind of gov could help him in SL. they should not be forced to pick one
Kristy Laval: so if people are indeed disadvantaged by having no gov. that would be their choice
Kristy Laval: so, to me that is not a problem. nobody can help people against their will.
Davidorban Agnon: Bru
Ashcroft Burnham: Well said :-)
Davidorban Agnon: I think that it is a simple question of definition
Dreamingen Writer: May I ask a question?
Bru Yang: right, I'm just worried if we're going to propose tools that are going to create a divide among people who are part of an institution and people who want to stay out of it
Davidorban Agnon: the entity that helps residents is what we call government
Davidorban Agnon: Yes Bru
Davidorban Agnon: you are right
Davidorban Agnon: so much so that previous
Davidorban Agnon: meetings of LGSG
Davidorban Agnon: were disrupted
Davidorban Agnon: by anarchists who
Davidorban Agnon: don't even want to let people think about these
Davidorban Agnon: developments
Bru Yang: I see
Davidorban Agnon: !
Ashcroft Burnham: (We have proper security now :-) )
Davidorban Agnon: (so much for the freedom of others!)
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Davidorban Agnon: But just a little provocative note
Davidorban Agnon: from my own view
Davidorban Agnon: which is almost always evolutionary
Davidorban Agnon: I want multiple governments to compete
Davidorban Agnon: to be able and 'defend' my interests
Davidorban Agnon: and I want to be able and play them off against each other
Davidorban Agnon: that is the evolutionary pressure
Davidorban Agnon: whcih SL has as an advantage against RL
Davidorban Agnon: we have a totally frictionless base
Davidorban Agnon: for citizenship
Davidorban Agnon: with potentially zero lock in.
Davidorban Agnon: We have one last question
Davidorban Agnon: and then we will go to the second paper by Kristy
Davidorban Agnon: Dream
Davidorban Agnon: you wanted to ask something
Dreamingen Writer: I wanted to know if there is a process for forgiveness?
Davidorban Agnon: Ash?
Dreamingen Writer: I do not want to get off topic
Ashcroft Burnham: I shan't stand up, since it'll take me five minutes to sit down again with the lag :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: However, to answer Dream's question, the tools are designed to be as flexible as possible.
Dreamingen Writer: thank you
Ashcroft Burnham: If a particular government decided to build forgiveness into its structures and norms, it would be perfectly free to do so :-)
Theater Chair: llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
Bru hairdo halo v2: All Go
Ashcroft Burnham: Have a look at the tools proopsals, Dream, and see for yourself how flexible that they are :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Kristy
Kristy Laval: yes
Davidorban Agnon: please go ahead with your second paper
Kristy Laval: thanks david
Kristy Laval: my second paper is not much about what tool we need to be put in place by linden, but is rather
Kristy Laval: about what we should do in the mean time
Kristy Laval: as slightly off-topic (but not much), i will try to be brief
Kristy Laval: one tool that is at the moment thought of in order to provide some power to decision taken is a grid wide ban list
Kristy Laval: which is something minimalist but which has theh advantage of being somehow feasible without LL
Kristy Laval: my point of view, is rather close to david's when he says gov needs to compete inSL
Kristy Laval: in order to take "market shares"
Kristy Laval: and i think even for simplistic tools such as grid wide ban list, we should have that in mind too
Kristy Laval: my document describes what I think is one way to introduce some sort of competition between multiple gov into baning lists
Kristy Laval: and also taking into account the scaling population and comunities present in SL
Lisandra Beck: hi, may I?
Kristy Laval: I do feel that taking into account teh growth of the population, as well as the diversity of the complains
Kristy Laval: will be hardly manageable though a signgle ban list
Kristy Laval: so, if you share my interest, i invite you to read my paper (trusted web of decision bodies) and send me your comments
Kristy Laval: thank you
Alphonsine Lemmon: Thank you for the explanation, sorry to side track a bit.
Davidorban Agnon: Very good!
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks Kristy
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Davidorban Agnon: :D
Davidorban Agnon: I now suggest, unless there are specific questions about this second one as well
Davidorban Agnon: that we move to the next point
Davidorban Agnon: So please let's have anonymous come to the podium and speak!
Davidorban Agnon: Ash
Davidorban Agnon: ?
Davidorban Agnon: Why didn't anonymous come?
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Ashcroft Burnham: Hold on, let me change the slide...
Davidorban Agnon: He never shows Up
Davidorban Agnon: We should ban him from the group!
Davidorban Agnon: Maybe with a grid-wide trusted thingy
Davidorban Agnon: huh?
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Davidorban Agnon: (that was a joke to spice things up alittle, thank you)
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you, Kirsty :-) There are a lot of detailed ideas there, and, although it hasn't been possible to look at them all in detail to-day, it was worthwhile having them aired for public comment.
Ashcroft Burnham: And thank you, David, for the wit ;-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Now, no. 4, anonymous.
Ashcroft Burnham: Obviously, anonymous isn't here...
Ashcroft Burnham: Actually, it's sort of my fault that he/she doesn't have a name: I forgot who sent me the notecard when I was compliing this.
Ashcroft Burnham: I think that it might have been James Seraph.
Ashcroft Burnham: Anyway, I'll hand back over to David to field questions or comments on Anonymous's ideas :-)
Davidorban Agnon: oops
Davidorban Agnon: that was quick
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Davidorban Agnon: So please, if you had the chance to read this proposal/comment
Davidorban Agnon: this is the right time to add your views
Davidorban Agnon: or ask questions about them
Davidorban Agnon: of course
Davidorban Agnon: it will be more of a conversation about it
Davidorban Agnon: since we won't have the author replying
Davidorban Agnon: at least today
Davidorban Agnon: Let's give a minute to everybody to look at the document
Ashcroft Burnham: BRB
Davidorban Agnon: Ok
Davidorban Agnon: Comments?
Davidorban Agnon: QUestions?
Davidorban Agnon: Additions to the anonymous note?
Davidorban Agnon: Let me add my view then
Davidorban Agnon: since some of the issues here are of nomenclature and definitions
Davidorban Agnon: I think that they are on topic
Davidorban Agnon: It is unlikely that we will be able and cover
Davidorban Agnon: all our needs for signifiers
Davidorban Agnon: with existing words
Davidorban Agnon: we will have definitions whose proper single word identification
Davidorban Agnon: must be a neologism
Davidorban Agnon: I would be worried if it were not so
Davidorban Agnon: since that would mean that the patform for politics
Davidorban Agnon: and policies is not fertile enough
Davidorban Agnon: since all the existing words suffice to describe the phenomena
Davidorban Agnon: within.
Davidorban Agnon: I am sure that this is not so
Davidorban Agnon: and we should hurry up and adopt new words as quickly as we can
Davidorban Agnon: to open the creativity as well to bring new meaning to what we do.
Davidorban Agnon: The best, and rather appropriate source for this of course is SF
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: SourceForge?
Davidorban Agnon: Other remarks or comments?
Davidorban Agnon: Ash: Science Fiction
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Bru? More provocative question?
Davidorban Agnon: s
Ashcroft Burnham: I have a brief comment on Anonymous's comments, but I'll go after everybody else...
Dreamingen Writer: for those not wanted to be invovled in a form of state, is there a bill or rights for them?
Ashcroft Burnham: Shall I answer that?
Davidorban Agnon: Ash, yes please
Ashcroft Burnham: Dream, bills of rights and other legal documents can only exist (and have any force) within the structure of a state of some sort.
Ashcroft Burnham: If there was no state (or some sort of government or metagovernment) attached to the bill of rights, who would enforce it? Who would adjudicate on it? How would it be decided what to put in it in the first place? :-)
Dreamingen Writer: i see said the blind man as he took out his hammer and saw
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks for your question Dream
Davidorban Agnon: Ash, to you then.
Davidorban Agnon: other questions, or comments on the last paper?
Ashcroft Burnham: It seems not...
Ashcroft Burnham: My response to Anonymous's comments is rather brief :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: With the first two, I agree (althoguh I'd be very interested to see what neologisms that Davidorban can come up with :-) )
Ashcroft Burnham: For the third, I think that the voting (and general perameters as to who can reply "no" to a ping) should be configurable :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: And now onto no. 5 :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Any other tool ideas.
Davidorban Agnon: Well,
Ashcroft Burnham: Please note that this is not the point at which to make miscellaeous comments about the existing tool ideas: that is what item no. 6 is about :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Item no. 5 is for anybody here who has any *extra* tool ideas that they think would be good to go onto the list for the third draft.
Davidorban Agnon: Ash, do we have tools about prim allocation?
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll had back to Davidorban to field suggestions :-)
Davidorban Agnon: If not I would not mind telling LGSG about what we are playing with here in VUlcano
Davidorban Agnon: hi Malachi, please have a seat in the audience
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Let's see if there are questions first :-)
Malachi Mulligan: ok david
Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody? Any other tool ideas? :-)
Bru Yang: no, prim allocation is my priority too :D
Davidorban Agnon: Yes, Ash, mine was a new tool idea! :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Go on, then :-)
Davidorban Agnon: ok
Davidorban Agnon: Vulcano is an island
Davidorban Agnon: where as the residents know
Davidorban Agnon: and I mean just any SL resident who comes by
Davidorban Agnon: and chats with others already here
Davidorban Agnon: ,
Davidorban Agnon: anybody can build
Davidorban Agnon: there are no restrictions in place
Davidorban Agnon: for where
Davidorban Agnon: how much
Davidorban Agnon: with or without scripts
Davidorban Agnon: etc
Davidorban Agnon: the single rather generic indication is
Davidorban Agnon: use your best judgement
Davidorban Agnon: and common sense
Davidorban Agnon: .
Davidorban Agnon: This leads of course to a lot of chatter
Davidorban Agnon: and a quick filling up of the prim limits
Davidorban Agnon: on the sim
Davidorban Agnon: what we are trying to find
Davidorban Agnon: is a new set of dynamic resource allocation algorithms
Davidorban Agnon: that would be configurable by the state
Davidorban Agnon: and would shape how a memebr would be able to use the resources
Davidorban Agnon: let me give you an example
Davidorban Agnon: we want newcomers to feel welcome
Davidorban Agnon: so we let them build
Davidorban Agnon: but of course the unexperienced will build a lot of wooden cubes
Davidorban Agnon: or even worse
Davidorban Agnon: litter the landscape with pink flamigoes
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Davidorban Agnon: what we are discussing actively about here
Davidorban Agnon: is autonomous robots
Davidorban Agnon: that identify the creators of objects
Davidorban Agnon: and talk to them
Davidorban Agnon: to educate them
Davidorban Agnon: and maintain a positive direction in the evolution of the spirit of the land
Davidorban Agnon: the way these would be implemented are parametric
Davidorban Agnon: and could be adapted to different needs
Davidorban Agnon: of different governments/states
Davidorban Agnon: robots that act without talking in more authoritarian ones
Davidorban Agnon: time limits
Davidorban Agnon: etc.
Davidorban Agnon: there are a lot of variables to consider
Davidorban Agnon: dialog
Davidorban Agnon: and this would become potentially a new tab in the about land
Davidorban Agnon: .
Davidorban Agnon: over.
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Bru Yang: just one addition
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you very much, David :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Please put that in notecard form so that I can add it to the draft no. 3 :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Ok
Davidorban Agnon: Other suggestions for new tools of government?
Ashcroft Burnham: Anyone...?
Davidorban Agnon: Ok
Davidorban Agnon: Let's move on to 6
Davidorban Agnon: Dream?
Dreamingen Writer: no it is okay
Dreamingen Writer: thank you
Davidorban Agnon: it looked you were about to say something! :)
Davidorban Agnon: ok
Davidorban Agnon: then comments on existing tools
Ashcroft Burnham: Any miscellaneous comments, anyone?
Ashcroft Burnham: If you've been bursting to say something about the tools for the whole meeting, but haven't found a convenient spot in the conversation, now's the time :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, it seems that the tools were more uncontroversial than we thought ;-)
Ashcroft Burnham: While you're all thinking of things to say, can I just let you all know about another project that you might all be interested in.
Ashcroft Burnham: Some of you know about it already, and are involved in it.
Ashcroft Burnham: Kristy alluded to it earlier :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Yes, Ash, please do
Ashcroft Burnham: It's called the Justice List, and it's a project to created a distributed banishment list based on the judgments of a court, backed with a democratically elected Parliament.
Ashcroft Burnham: Kirsty's idea is to make the technical aspect of the system allow for multiple distributed ban lists, but we're starting with the one for now, and we can see whether there is interest to take it further :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: If anybody's interested in helping to manage, administer or design aspects of the system, do IM me :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Now, does anybody have anything miscellaneous to say?
Ashcroft Burnham: (I think, alas, that we're clashing with a Thinkers meeting about account verification, which might explain the slightly lower turnout than usual...)
Dreamingen Writer: Is banning the only tool we have?
Ashcroft Burnham: It's all that we have at present, which is why the LGSG exists: to persuade LL to create more :-)
Dreamingen Writer: there is no form of rehabilitation?
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, now, we can't have a software tool for rehabilitation, lovely as it'd be to have a "rehabilitate" option on each avatar's pie menu :-)
Dreamingen Writer: haha
Dreamingen Writer: thank you
Ashcroft Burnham: Individual governments would be free to set up their own rehabilitaiton schemes, of course.
Dreamingen Writer: right
Ashcroft Burnham: But, of course, rehabilitation can only work for somebody who's willing to be rehabilitated. A coercive option is still needed :-)
Dreamingen Writer: i c
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks Dream
Davidorban Agnon: and Ash for your answers
Ashcroft Burnham: You're very welcome :-)
Dreamingen Writer: thank you
Ashcroft Burnham: I should say, if anybody here is not already a memeber of the Local Government Study Group, but is interested in discussing local government further, then do join :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: It's open enrolment, and membership is free :_)
Ashcroft Burnham: You'll get notices of forthcoming meetings...
Dreamingen Writer: who will settle disputes between states?
Mondrian Lykin: George W. Bush
Mondrian Lykin: lol
Ashcroft Burnham: The answer depends on what kinds of disputes that there are :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: For example, the tools that I have posited include the possibility of having federal systems.
Ashcroft Burnham: So, between two states of a federation, a federal authority would adjudicate.
Ashcroft Burnham: In other cases, it'd be down to diplomats :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: There's nothing stopping people, of course, creating a United Virtual Nations, or something similar :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: That'd be a very good development if it happened.
Dreamingen Writer: right that is where I was going
Davidorban Agnon: One issue
Davidorban Agnon: that I think we have to keep in mind
Ashcroft Burnham: I'm not sure that that idea can be built into the tools specifically, though, unless you have an idea?
Davidorban Agnon: at all stages of preparation
Davidorban Agnon: is that there will be multiple grids
Davidorban Agnon: and that they will interoperate
Dreamingen Writer: unless it reserves some power for a SLUN?
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, yes, I notice that we have a beta tester for open SecondLife wmongst us to-day... :-)
Davidorban Agnon: so there will be the need of many other structures
Davidorban Agnon: and interfaces
Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, or at least, we did earlier on :-)
Davidorban Agnon: with new roles
Davidorban Agnon: You mean Opensource?
Davidorban Agnon: He is running his own Server!
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, I saw the screenshot.
Ashcroft Burnham: Very impressive :-)
Davidorban Agnon: So I am sure that the need of further degrees of political innovation is right there...
Ashcroft Burnham: David - do you have any ideas about what, if any, tools would be needed to manage that?
Dreamingen Writer: thank you, I must leave
Dreamingen Writer takes a humble bow
Davidorban Agnon: thanks for your active participation Dream
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you, Dream, for your contribution :-)
Davidorban Agnon: see you next time
Davidorban Agnon: and welcome to Vulcano
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, it seems like everybody likes the tools the way that they are, more or less :-)
Davidorban Agnon: Heh
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you everybody for coming along, and for contributing your ideas :-)
Davidorban Agnon: We don't have Prokofy
Davidorban Agnon: othewise there would have been more dissent!
Davidorban Agnon: Right?
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL! He'd express dissent at anything ;-)
Davidorban Agnon: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: If you want somebody to disagree with any reasonable idea, Prokofy's your man! ;-)
Davidorban Agnon: Thank you very much for attending today's meeting
Ashcroft Burnham: Anyway, that aside...
Davidorban Agnon: and thanks to LGSG for choosing Vulcano as a venuw
Davidorban Agnon: e
Davidorban Agnon: You are welcome to stand up
Davidorban Agnon: and stay here
Davidorban Agnon: or just outside
Davidorban Agnon: at the shade of our red oak
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you very much, David, for hosting the meeting, and providing us with such a fine venue :-)
Davidorban Agnon: for an informal chat
Davidorban Agnon: and of course
Ashcroft Burnham: A round of applause, everybody, for David :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Davidorban Agnon: please do visit Vulcano before you leave
Davidorban Agnon: :D
Ashcroft Burnham: Transcripts will be posted to the Wiki shortly.
Davidorban Agnon: Thanks Ash!