Ashcroft Burnham: Do take a seat, everybody: meeting's about to start :-)

Piet Garfield: Iam from The Netherlands

Lem Skall: Baluchistan

Ashcroft Burnham: Please note, this
meeting is being recorded and a transcript published, so, if you don't
want what you say to be made public, don't say anything :-)

Eyesov Argus: Germany

push restrict: Automatic avatar position locker active.

Ralph Radius: The US.

Auction Hammerer: I am from the US too, this is such a wonderful place to collaborate

Elspeth Guyot: England here.

Ashcroft Burnham: Michel will be chairing the meeting :-)

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Ashcroft Burnham

Michel Manen: Hello everyone and welcome to the Second Plenary Meeting of the Local Government Study Group The benefits of local governance

Michel Manen: I'm glad to see you all here and i'd like to thank Angel Fluffy for arranging this facility

Angel Fluffy: You're most welcome :)

Michel Manen: My name is Michel Manen and I am a member of the Represenative Assembly of the Confederation od Democratic Citizens

Michel Manen: I am also the LGSG Pulicity officer and will be chairing todays meeting

Michel Manen: You fill find todays documents in the flipchart prepared here

Michel Manen: including the Agenda for discussion

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Elspeth Guyot

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Dnali Anabuki

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Elspeth Guyot

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Dnali Anabuki

Michel Manen: To ensure that the
meeting is progressed expeditiously, and that everyone gets a fair say,
after initial introduction, AShcrfft will introduce each topic,

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Dnali Anabuk

Michel Manen: then a chair appointed
for the meeting will select from those who indicate via IM that they
wish to talk to either make a brief additional statement

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Rose Springvale

Michel Manen: the chair will set the
time to ensure that all have a fair say), or ask a question to either
the original speaker or a person who has made a subsequent statement,
or some combiation of the two, whereupon that person will have a
specific time in which to answer.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Rose Springvale

Michel Manen: Without further ado i will yield to the Founder of the LGSG, Ashcroft Burnham.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Angel Fluffy

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Angel Fluffy

Michel Manen: AShcrfot?

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you very much, Michel :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, interesting rotating poseball thing here...

Ashcroft Burnham has indicated consent to be recorded.

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you all very much for coming along, everybody.

Ashcroft Burnham: This meeting is for discussing the benefits of local government in SecondLife.

Ashcroft Burnham: There will be
another meeting in a few weeks' time to discuss the tools in detail,
so, if you have any good ideas about the tools themselves, hold your
thoughts: they'll be most welcome then.

Ashcroft Burnham: Before we start...

Ashcroft Burnham: ...I'd like to say a word of thanks to those people who've helped to organise this event and make it possible.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Dnali Anabuki

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Dnali Anabuki

Ashcroft Burnham: First of all, thank you to Angel Fluffy down there...

Mark Lock: good evening all

Ashcroft Burnham: ...for putting me in touch with the person who set up the venue, and for organising security.

Ashcroft Burnham: Second of all, thanks to Haden Divisadero for loaning the LGSG part of his exclusive low-lag private island...

Mark Lock: hi Intl

Michel Manen: Hello IntLibber

Michel Manen: have a seat

Ashcroft Burnham: ...and, even more, for setting up this wonderful conference venue.

IntLibber Brautigan: Hey folks

Mark Lock: glad to see you here

Ashcroft Burnham: Not only that, he did it in the sapce of about two days - from scratch!

Ashcroft Burnham: So, if anybody's looking for a superlative events organiser in SecondLife, look no further than Haden Divisadero.

Ashcroft Burnham: He really is very talented - and extremely efficient!

Ashcroft Burnham: A transcript of this meeting should be available afterwards...

Ashcroft Burnham: Now, we will shortly be moving onto the topics, so I'll hand you back to Michel for a second.

Michel Manen: All those who speak are
asked to touch the black box under the speaker ball, in otder to obtain
a full transcript of the meeting

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Ralph Radius

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Ralph Radius

Michel Manen: Ad now ASh, please
intorduce the topic of the chair will set the time to ensure that all
have a fair say), or ask a question to either the original speaker or a
person who has made a subsequent statement, or some combiation of the
two, whereupon that person will have a specific time in which to answer.

Michel Manen: sorry

Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Kuan Yiyuan

Michel Manen: and now ash please introduce item nr. 3

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Auction Hammerer

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Auction Hammerer

Ashcroft Burnham: As Michel said, this meeting will be divided into a number of sections for each item on the agenda.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Piet Garfield

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Piet Garfield

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Kim Chihuly

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Rose Springvale

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Spiritof Saintlouis

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Justice Soothsayer

Ashcroft Burnham: More detail about
each of those items can be found inside the flipchart: the other
notecard alongside the agenda (no. 1), "Benefits of local governments
in virtual worlds", gives details on each of the topics.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Spiritof Saintlouis

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Justice Soothsayer

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Kim Chihuly

Ashcroft Burnham: I will only give a short introduction to each topic so that most of the time can be dedicated to questions and comments.

Ashcroft Burnham: Starting with the first substantive item, the benefits of specifically local government.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Eyesov Argus

Ashcroft Burnham: Ultimately, the
most pertinent question with respect to government, which inherently is
an institution that exercises power over others to some extent, who
should get to decide who is in positions of authority in the
government, and what sort of government to have?

Ashcroft Burnham: All four million
or so SecondLifers are never going to agree on how to organise their
governments, let alone *who* should be doing the governing.

Ashcroft Burnham: So, for any system
of government to work in SecondLife, it has to be a system that is not
a single, universal sysetm for all of SecondLife, but a localised,
opt-in system, where the powers of government are only those that the
citizens of government choose, by becoming citizens, to give it.

Ashcroft Burnham: Welcome newcomers - do take an agenda from the flipchart :-)

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Sabine Stonebender

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Sabine Stonebender

Ashcroft Burnham: A local, rather
than universal system, will have the advantage that the amount that a
government controls is subject to the ultimate form of democracy:
market forces.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Sunray Susenko

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Sunray Susenko

Ashcroft Burnham: Which systems work
the best will be weeded out by trial and error, and which people are
most suited to govern will be determined by seeing in practice just how
well they do govern.

Ashcroft Burnham: Those who like one sort of government can live under that sort, and those who like other sorts can live under that.

Ashcroft Burnham: Hopefully, in time, a whole range of different sorts of governments will emerge to suit many differnet sorts of purposes.

Ashcroft Burnham: That diversity and
variety alone is a potentially worthwhile addition to SecondLife, but
that topic Is hall reserve for "social experimentaiton and publicity"
at the end.

Ashcroft Burnham: One final clarification:

Ashcroft Burnham: the choice, if the
tools that I have devised, or something very similar to them, are
adopted, will not just be between one sort of government and another -

Ashcroft Burnham: it will also be between government or no government at all.

Ashcroft Burnham: Those who are
sceptical of the worth of governments in SecondLife, or those who just
prefer anarchy, will be catered for just as much as those of us who
want to see a world in which legislative institutions resolve disputes
prospectively and judicial institutions resolve disputes
retrospectively.

Ashcroft Burnham: Choice is the cornerstone of locality: without choice, government could never work effectively in a virtual world.

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you all for
listening on this topic: more details are available in the notecard on
the flipchart. I'll had back to Michel, who will field comments. Those
making comments or asking questions should, when they have been
selected to speak by Michel, come and stand up here so that we all know
who has the floor.

Ashcroft Burnham: Over to you, Michel :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: BRB

Michel Manen: The floor is now open to comments

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Sngac Carter

IntLibber Brautigan: I'd like to comment

Michel Manen: please let me know if you ant to adress this issue

Michel Manen: you have the floor

Michel Manen: please touch the black box

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Sngac Carter

IntLibber Brautigan: I must say that
what Ashcroft has presented fits my most cherished wishes for the
proper means and role of government in real life. His concept is
excellent in construction.

Stephane Deschanel has indicated consent to be recorded.

IntLibber Brautigan: and I think it
can certainly work as a very good model for us here as well, and
provided some important issues are addressed, I'm prepared to endorse
it.

IntLibber Brautigan: my two issues are thus

IntLibber Brautigan: 1) griefing and
security: the one almost universally acknowledged role of government is
to protect its citizens from enemies without and within

IntLibber Brautigan: yet LL does not give us the tools to effectively do that

IntLibber Brautigan: SL is wide open to abuse by griefers, cyberterrorists, and hate criminals

IntLibber Brautigan: as well as fraudsters, etc

IntLibber Brautigan: LL refuses to take the steps necessary to close these loopholes, and ignores our pleas for change

IntLibber Brautigan: if we take action into our own hands, we run the risk of being banned ourselves

IntLibber Brautigan: our core rights of self defense are therefore nonexistent in SL

IntLibber Brautigan: until and unless the issue of security is addressed, then the core reason for government in SL has no foundation

IntLibber Brautigan: issue 2

Michel Manen: 2 minutes intlibber please

Tasrill Sieyes: The question is how
much goverment can be build even if the proper tools are given when the
foundation that the goverment is build on is made of sand.

IntLibber Brautigan: without any
basis for the core reason for government, then, what is the purpose of
having government here? since we cannot protect against real criminals,
is it instead to engage in collective action against property owners?

Michel Manen: Are there any comments on Inlibber's remarks?

Joseph Grumiaux: nope, just got here

Smoke Wijaya: yes, what about the core issue of government is security of existence and self rule

Smoke Wijaya: instead of defence

Michel Manen: Intiller?

Michel Manen: you want to reply?

Michel Manen: or Ash?

IntLibber Brautigan: yes

IntLibber Brautigan: security of existence is meaningless when your sims are crashed and buildings are being deleted, or pummeled with hate crimes

Ashcroft Burnham: I'll let IntLibber reply to Smoke first :-)

Smoke Wijaya: fair enough

Michel Manen: but how would you balance the two Intibber?

Ralph Radius: IntLibber, Are you saying we need a police force with the legal power to stop griefers?

Joseph Grumiaux: huh, is that not LL job?

IntLibber Brautigan: and they are developing a new client that combines aspects of libsl to give them unparalleled power to destroy

Michel Manen: Ash do you want to comment on this and conlude this topic to mve to the neext one?

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you very much IntLibber for your comments :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Security is indeed an important issue: so important, in fact, that it has its own agenda item :-)

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Robin Lobo

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Robin Lobo

Ashcroft Burnham: I daresay that there is more tha LL could do to address security issues.

Ashcroft Burnham: IntLibber, perhaps
you could form your own "Security Study Group" to get together security
tools ideas and persuade LL to adopt them in the same way as the LGSG
does with governance tools?

IntLibber Brautigan: sure

Ashcroft Burnham: One thing that I don't agree with, however, is that local government is pointless until LL improves its security.

Ashcroft Burnham: I daresay, IntLibber paints perhaps too bleak a picture of the security situation in SecondLife.

IntLibber Brautigan: I'm on the front lines daily

Ashcroft Burnham: There are griefers
who can exploit the system, but those who use ToS-breaking clients or
those who crash sims will always need to be dealt with by LL, not local
governments.

Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, then you are in the position of always seeing the worst of it :-)

Michel Manen: We could all coordinate
our actions of course. I know others, such as Angl Fluffy, re also very
much interesed in this topic. Angel maybe you will want to say a few
words?

Angel Fluffy thinks...

Ashcroft Burnham: However, just as
there are many worthwhile things to do in SecondLife before LL improves
its security, so is local government possible as things are now: the
existing security measures of banishment, for example, with the added
posibility of penal measures for citizens is enough to be worthwhile,
if not necessarily perfect. But remember: real governments aren't
perfect, either: people get away with crime in real life all the time.
That doesn't mean that it's not worth having a government and a police
force and a criminal justice system.

Ashcroft Burnham: Over to Angel :-)

Tasrill Sieyes: What is griefing?
Some people call my avtars griefing, while others say hate speach is
greifing. Do we have the right not to be offended? That quesion makes
the powers needed very vague.

Michel Manen: One moment Tasrill Angel is adding acomment then we wil get to your question

Tasrill Sieyes: *nods* sorry first time here

Angel Fluffy: Greater flexibility
with regard to permissions (e.g. the ability to turn build off only for
non-verified users) and greater informational (e.g. ban data) sharing
tools would be good also.

Angel Fluffy: In short... the current
way security is done in SL is not working and while there may be
borderline cases which might or might not be griefing, there are also
clear cut cases which are not being adequately dealt with.

Ashcroft Burnham: I think that we have another candidate for founding the Security Study Group ;-)

Angel Fluffy: My point is simple :
local government requires some way of enforcing rules - one that cannot
be bypassed simply by creating alts.

Michel Manen: One intersting topic is that of the benefits of local versus universal government. Anyone has any comments on this?

IntLibber Brautigan: I endorse it

Ashcroft Burnham: Incidentally, Angel, much of what you say is addressed by a later topic, that of identity verification :-)

Angel Fluffy already has a long-standing
large group for security-related topics. It is called 'Proactive
Security' and it is comprised of estate admins and the owners/managers
of popular places in SL, as well as developers that make things like
BanLink and the weaponscanner item. :)

Ralph Radius: I don't think that
security can be seperated from government. It ultimatly has to be
controled by government in a peacefull society.

Angel Fluffy: unfortunately Ashcroft
I do not agree with this - fundamentally I think that identity
verification won't work for public club security because people will
prefer environments where they don't have to register for an ID service
for entry... and so we need some sort of ban that works even on totally
unverified users, like for example, an IP-based ban.

Madeleine Fitzgerald: Passing comment: Encoded (therefore secret) IP addresses in every AV's profile.

Michel Manen: madeleine do you want to stand up and elaborate?

Madeleine Fitzgerald: Not really. ANyone can contact me for that idea.

Michel Manen: great. Any other comments on this agenda item?

Michel Manen: since none ash please conclude and move to the next item

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you all, and some very interesting comments on security.

Ashcroft Burnham: There are some
interesting ideas out there, and Angel/Madeline's idea of IP banning is
a very useful possible solution to add to the armoury.

Ashcroft Burnham: Which brings us all on to...

Ashcroft Burnham: ....agenda item no. 4 :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Now, of course, we've covered some of this already by now.

Ashcroft Burnham: However, it seems that this is a burning issue for many.

Ashcroft Burnham: IntLibber and
Angel point out the need for better security tools, and that's
certainly something quite independent worth lobbying LL for.

Ashcroft Burnham: If there are going
to be serious security tools, it would be far better if there were also
seriously fair means of implimenting them.

Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, for all
but hardened client-hacking griefers, the existing security tools of
banishment, etc. can be quite harsh in itself: there are reported cases
of banishment powers being misused, both at local level, and even at LL
level.

Ashcroft Burnham: The reality is
that Linden Lab doesn't have the resources to investigate every report
of griefing properly, and give every alleged griefer a fair chance to
defend her or himself.

Ashcroft Burnham: That is precisely
what is needed if punishments severe enough to be effective are ever
available, which, in large measure, they already are.

Ashcroft Burnham: The local
government tools that I have proposed also include further possible
penal powers of forfeiture of liquid escrows (effectively, a
software-enforced fine), and forfeityre of land held within the
jurisdiction of the government.

Ashcroft Burnham: The potential severity of those punishments underlines the need for locality and choice, as in item no. 3.

Ashcroft Burnham: It also higlights
the need for tools that are flexible enough to allow truly
sophisticated government design, to allow for, for example, proper
separation of the powers, so that independent judiciaries can be
developed.

Ashcroft Burnham: Again, as with
previous agenda items, more detailsd thoughts on this topic can be
found in the "benefits of local governments..." document in the big
flipchart.

Ashcroft Burnham: In conclusion on
this topic, proper governments, with the possibility of having proper
judicial systems, are the best way of ensuring that instances of
alleged griefing are dealt with fairly.

Ashcroft Burnham: Thakn you.

Michel Manen: Thank you Ashcroft. Comments or questions from the floor?

Ashcroft Burnham: Over to Michel again :-)

Elspeth Guyot: Michel I have a comment

Michel Manen: Eslpeth?

Michel Manen: plese stand up

Michel Manen: and touch the black vbox

Elspeth Guyot has indicated consent to be recorded.

Michel Manen: Well one of our aims

Michel Manen: is to work together with LL

Michel Manen: to influence their thoughts and decision making

Michel Manen: on exactly such issues

Michel Manen: Ash?

Michel Manen: any comments?

IntLibber Brautigan: yes

IntLibber Brautigan has indicated consent to be recorded.

Michel Manen: intllibber please

IntLibber Brautigan: ack

IntLibber Brautigan: okay

IntLibber Brautigan: firstly LL does have tools available at this time, they are encoded, at least off the mainland, in the estate functions system

IntLibber Brautigan: estates are essentially nations

IntLibber Brautigan: their owners have allodial title to the land

IntLibber Brautigan: they collect "property taxes" in the form of tier

IntLibber Brautigan: There are a LOT
of estate level functions which IMHO should be scriptable via a subset
of lsl that only works for objects owned by estate owners and estate
managers

IntLibber Brautigan: this proposed
subset will empower us locally to a great extent, but estate powers are
limited and do need some features added ore xpanded

IntLibber Brautigan: for instance, the ban list max size is 300

IntLibber Brautigan: since the patriotic nigras declared war on my estate, we have maxed that list out already, and we are only 3 months old

Michel Manen: Thank you Intlibber . Elspeth you wanted to add something? We didnt hear you i think as you were out of range.

Elspeth Guyot: Thank you.

Elspeth Guyot: Well I have a
question. Linden are taking on more in-world representatives, in US and
international. Is there a way these people could be linked with the
regional governments or be helpful for example for enforcement of
anti-griefing measures? Acting in effect as GMs?

Elspeth Guyot: I don't think this showed up before?

Michel Manen: Ash can you comment and conclude please?

IntLibber Brautigan: There are exactly three Lindens currently online right now.

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you Michel :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: To start with
Elspeth, the important part about agenda item no. 3 was that users
themselves, rather than the Lindens, would deal with local government
functions: the aim of that was to ensure that local government is based
on market forces and choice.

Ashcroft Burnham: However, there'll
always be some functions, such as dealing with those who cause problems
on Linden-owned land, or those who create sim-crashing objects, etc.,
that Lindens will need to deal with.

Ashcroft Burnham: As for IntLibber's
suggestion of increasing ban list sizes, I couldn't agree more.
IntLibber, you'll have to come to the next meeting, which will be all
about the tools :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Now, onto agenda item no. 5...

Michel Manen: Thank you Aash, Please introduce the next agenda itam

Ashcroft Burnham: Contract enforcement, IP and commerce.

Ashcroft Burnham: As with all the
previous agenda items, the more detailed explanation is available in
the flipchart: just click for the "benefits of virutal government..."
notecard.

Ashcroft Burnham: However, the short
version is that local governments, using their powers of enforcement
can, if they have proper judicial systems in place, use the powers of
enforcement not only to deal with common griefers, but also to enforce
contracts.

Ashcroft Burnham: The importance to commerce of enforcable contracts can hardly be underestimated.

Ashcroft Burnham: It is often said,
for example, that the British empire was so successful economically
partly because of its stable, efficient contract law, developed by the
common law in the 19th century.

Ashcroft Burnham: Millions of US$ are transacted in SecondLife every day.

Ashcroft Burnham: Successful
commerce is possible here without enforcable contracts largely because
of computer-code enforced transaction requirements: some kinds of
simple transaction (pay money, get object) cannot be defrauded easily.

Ashcroft Burnham: The whole of the SecondLife economy is built on ultra-simple buy/sell transactions.

Ashcroft Burnham: With enforcable
contracts, much more sophisticated transactions become possible without
the trouble and expense of entering into (and possibliy litigating in
real-world courts over) contracts made using real-life identities.

Ashcroft Burnham: Just imagine the
possibilities for commerce if SecondLife had its own internal, fair,
just and predictable means of enforcing contracts.

Michel Manen: Yes ASh can you elaborate on the issue of real world versus in world jurisdication?

Ashcroft Burnham: And just imagine
also the greater efficiency of using the in-built enforcement
mechanisms, and one or more in-world justice systems for enforcing IP
rights.

Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, certainly :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: If A makes a contract in world with B, and B breaks that contract, what can A do?

Ashcroft Burnham: As things stand
now, A would have to find B's real identity, find B's local court, find
(and pay) a lawyer local to B to bring an action in B's local court,
possibly travel thousands of miles to attend a court hearing in a
foreign country, and hope that the court thinks that a contract made in
what it would proably consider a big computer game is serious enough to
be enforcable.

Ashcroft Burnham: That means that only contracts with huge values in the first life are ever likely to be enforced that way.

Ashcroft Burnham: Now, imagine if there were in-world governments.

Ashcroft Burnham: A makes a contract with B.

Ashcroft Burnham: B breaks the contract.

Ashcroft Burnham: A brings an action against B, using B's avatar name, in an in-world court.

Ashcroft Burnham: The court orders B to pay damages.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda to Davidorban Agnon

Ashcroft Burnham: If B doesn't, B is banned from his own land, or has money deducted from her or his Linden Dollar account.

Ashcroft Burnham: Far simpler, cheaper and more effective :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: And over to Michel to feild comments and/or questions.

IntLibber Brautigan: If I may comment

Michel Manen: Indeed. Any comments or views on this important issue?

Ashcroft Burnham: /afl

Ashcroft Burnham: BRB

Michel Manen: one moment intlibber

IntLibber Brautigan: ok

Michel Manen: any one else?

Michel Manen: since none please go ahead intliber

IntLibber Brautigan: okay well this is a very important issue, but one that has been addressed elsewhere in the literary foundations of SL

IntLibber Brautigan: as many are aware, much of the ideas of SL came from Neal Stephenson's novel Snow Crash

IntLibber Brautigan: That depicted a very anarchical world

IntLibber Brautigan: post-federal in type

IntLibber Brautigan: The Diamond Age

IntLibber Brautigan: developed a very anarcho capitalist solution for justice without government

IntLibber Brautigan: these ideas were formed first by David Friedman in his ancap manifesto The Machinery of Freedom

IntLibber Brautigan: in which market
based judiciaries enforced contracts under common law without the need
for the corruptible insturmentalities of government

IntLibber Brautigan: the markets can decide who is the greater justice giver

IntLibber Brautigan: our ratings systems allow for those who are most positively rated to accrue the greatest credibility

IntLibber Brautigan: also the novel Diamond Age depicted a future extension of Common Law called the Common Economic Protocols

IntLibber Brautigan: those protocols have been fleshed out and are available online

Michel Manen: Thank you Intillber for your insights.

Michel Manen: We have the pleasure of
havign with us today David Orban, a Real life Expert on 2L and frequent
lecturer around the world. David you wish to say a few words?

IntLibber Brautigan: I have encoded theminto my own covenant

Michel Manen: david please touch the black box recorder

Davidorban Agnon: Thanks for the floor Michel.

Davidorban Agnon: I reached the discussion late

Michel Manen: the recorder david please?

Davidorban Agnon: please fogive me if some of what I say

Davidorban Agnon: (touching...)

Davidorban Agnon: has been covered already

Davidorban Agnon: (Michel, am I recording ok?)

Michel Manen: yes

Davidorban Agnon: I want to refer to the relationship of contracts to the chain of trust in IP

Davidorban Agnon: Many of the transactions in SL are relative to the transfer of digital goods

Davidorban Agnon: Currently the service value of the creation of the good

Davidorban Agnon: is often incorporated by the sale value of the good

Davidorban Agnon: as the entire Sl world is going to move towards an open source model

Davidorban Agnon: in the server level as well

Davidorban Agnon: the currently accepted

Davidorban Agnon: and uncontested

Davidorban Agnon: DRM-based chain of trust is going to be

Davidorban Agnon: easily and universally broken

Davidorban Agnon: Basically what now is the dependable system of CMT rights

Davidorban Agnon: (Copy Modify Transfer)

Davidorban Agnon: is going to be universally broken, or breakable.

Davidorban Agnon: This is as much of an issue for small transactions as for large ones.

Davidorban Agnon: It heightens the urgency for what Ashcroft has expressed

Michel Manen: THank you David

Michel Manen: Ash any comments?

Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, thank you IntLibber and David for your comments :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Dealing with them both backwards, firstly David's...

Ashcroft Burnham: As to IntLibber's
remarks, one of the exciting things about the local government system
that I have proposed is its configurability, and consequent possibility
for experimentation.

Ashcroft Burnham: A judiciary-only
government as IntLibber described could indeed be tried out (or, even,
a whole series of them), and battle it out for popularity alongside
more conventional legislature-executive-judiciary models.

Michel Manen: Thank you Ash. And now Ash please introduce the next agenda item.

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you, Michel :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Agenda item no. 6 is...

Ashcroft Burnham: ...land :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Land has all sorts
of relationships to local government, some of which are more
appropriate for exploration when we look at the tools in more detail in
the next meeting.

Ashcroft Burnham: (Newcomers should
note that a fuller verison of what I'm talking about is available by
getting the second notecard by clicking on the flipchart).

Ashcroft Burnham: However, one aspect that is suitable for discussion here is what I call land enforcement.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Davidorban Agnon

Ashcroft Burnham: That is, using government to prevent highly undesirable and problematic uses of land.

Ashcroft Burnham: I'll give one or two examples.

Ashcroft Burnham: Many people in SecondLife complain about what they call "sign extortion".

Ashcroft Burnham: That is where an
owner of a small plot of land next to larger, more valuable plots
erects on that land a large, unsightly and often rotating sign, that is
a substantial blight to the surrounding land, with the specific
intention of selling that tiny plot of land at a grossly inflated price
to the neighbouring landowners, intent on getting rid of the annoyance.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Davidorban Agnon

Ashcroft Burnham: Another is
resource over-usage: on the mainland, where agent limits are low, a
problem that has often occurred is where the owner of a smallish part
of a sim opens on it an attraction so popular (casinos with camping
chairs are a common example) that the sim is so often full that the
rest of it is unusable for most of the time.

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Smoke Wijaya

Ashcroft Burnham: If the landowners
in question were all citizens of the same government (or the offending
landowner was a citizen of a government that enforced rules prohibiting
that sort of thing, even at the request of non-citizens), then the
enforcement mechanisms of government could be used to prevent such bad
practice.

Ashcroft Burnham: The obvious question is: what motivation would those intent on doing wrong have to join such governments?

Ashcroft Burnham: Firstly,
governments will be able to be configured (if my proposals are adopted)
such that, once land is in their jurisdiction, it cannot thereafter be
seceded from them without their consent.

Ashcroft Burnham: Secondly, land in
a sim in which all land is controlled by either a single government, or
a set of governemnts on good terms with each other, and all
more-or-less prohibinting land misuse will be more valuable than land
not under such controls because people would buy it knowing that they
would be free from such misuse.

Ashcroft Burnham: So, people would
have an incentive to make sure that, over time, land becomes under the
jurisdiciton of governments by, for example, buying a large amount of
land in a sim, putting it under the control of governments, and then
selling it on.

Ashcroft Burnham: That way, over time, market forces would help to put land in a posiiton where governments can effectively prevent abuse.

Ashcroft Burnham: Oops... misfly :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Market forces would determine also how much land is government controlled: after all, some people will still like anarchy :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Now, over to Michel again for comments from the floor...

IntLibber Brautigan: I can comment

Michel Manen: Thank yo ASh. Comments from the floor?

Michel Manen: Intlibber?

Davidorban Agnon: I have a comment as well.

Michel Manen: then David

Michel Manen: go ahead intibber

IntLibber Brautigan: okay I can share my experience in my estate here

IntLibber Brautigan: firstly, estates hold allode, ergo they have eminent domain power

IntLibber Brautigan: they also have covenants

IntLibber Brautigan: in my estate, we don't discriminate against uses

IntLibber Brautigan: but we do treat lag as pollution

IntLibber Brautigan: we audit land holders for the amount of lag they produce

IntLibber Brautigan: limit it based on land area they hold in the sim

IntLibber Brautigan: if someone refuses to comply with their limits, they have to buy more land, or else get their laggy items returned to them

IntLibber Brautigan: if they persist in deploying those laggy items again

IntLibber Brautigan: they are warned they will lose their land or be fined x lindens per day

IntLibber Brautigan: if they refuse to pay a fine, they lose their land

IntLibber Brautigan: usually they either comply or they put their land up for sale

IntLibber Brautigan: with regard to
signage, we require admin approval for large signs that are not
attached to buildings and don't relate to their property function

Michel Manen: THank you intlibber. DAvid please take the floor

Davidorban Agnon: Ok

Davidorban Agnon: Hi Ash!

Davidorban Agnon: My remarks, questions regard

Davidorban Agnon: the speed of implementation, and diffusion of a given set of parameters

Davidorban Agnon: in the local government rules and regulations

Davidorban Agnon: as concerns land use

Davidorban Agnon: these have to adapt to changing conditions

Davidorban Agnon: (I mentioned open source before

Davidorban Agnon: which will radically change the economics of land ownership)

Davidorban Agnon: for example the adoption in the future of direct teleport

Davidorban Agnon: will do away with the slightly antiquated metaphor

Davidorban Agnon: of euclidean geometry and map based navigation in-world.

Davidorban Agnon: So back to the question:

Davidorban Agnon: have you planned cross-parameter-set incentives

Davidorban Agnon: to accelerate the adoption of best practices

Davidorban Agnon: and keep the evolution of the parameter sets

Davidorban Agnon: in par with the way the whole world evolves?

Michel Manen: Thank you David for sharing your perspective. Any more comments or questions on this issue?

Michel Manen: Thank you. As you can see all issues we have discussed today are very important for the future of 2L.

Michel Manen: So are the next five:
7. Group organisation and asset sharing; 8. Self-regulation and
external regulation; 9. Social experimentation and publicity; 10.
Identity verification; 11. Any other benefits of local governance.

IntLibber Brautigan: I would just like to point out the obvious that direct teleport exists, but is not allowed in many areas for security reasons

Michel Manen: Given the time and the importance of these topics, I suggest we adjourn these items to the next meetings. Anyone opposed?

Ashcroft Burnham: Michel's probably right :-)

Michel Manen: Good. Ash please move on to the last agenda item.

Ashcroft Burnham: But I have one or two responses to the comments just raised before we adjourn to open discussion...

Michel Manen: go ahea ASh

Ashcroft Burnham: IntLibber:

Ashcroft Burnham: your comments are very interesting, as ever :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: And your ideas about just how land enforcement could work on the ground are indeed good.

Ashcroft Burnham: As your
illustration points out, some degree of governance is already possible
on private islands, with the estate owner as governor.

Ashcroft Burnham: But that sort of
governance is limited to private islands, and the government type
limited to monarchy, except in those extremely rare cases where estate
owners genuinely and unfalteringly let other people tell them what to
do :-)

IntLibber Brautigan: he he

Ashcroft Burnham: David: I must confess to a degree of confusion about what you said: what perameters and what incentives? :-)

Michel Manen: David?

Michel Manen: comments?

IntLibber Brautigan: ah just that if he thinks as a business owner I don't have to listen to my residents, he is crazy

Davidorban Agnon: Sorry

Davidorban Agnon: Here I am

Michel Manen: DAvid any comment on Ash s question?

Davidorban Agnon: the parameters I am referring to are those that define the incentives to behave well on the land governed.

Davidorban Agnon: Different lands will have different incentives.

Davidorban Agnon: As these systems evolve faster than we can discuss them ;)

Davidorban Agnon: it is important to make sure that the best set of incentives 'wins'

Davidorban Agnon: In RL this is for example

Davidorban Agnon: embodied by global trade imbalances

Davidorban Agnon: which over time theoretically self-correct.

Michel Manen: Ralph you have a question?

Davidorban Agnon: I hope this clarifies a little.

Michel Manen: Ash please move to the concluding iagenda item

Ralph Radius: I'd be interested
what functions intLibber thought would be necessary to impliment his
version of anarchy, Not right now but as a long term issue. Anarcho
Capitalism has a sizable following and it would be good if they had the
powers they thin they need

Michel Manen: Intlibber? any ideas?

IntLibber Brautigan: well its been covered before

IntLibber Brautigan: but

Ashcroft Burnham: ...

IntLibber Brautigan: I can post a link to the common economic protocols for people to study

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you David and Michel...

Ashcroft Burnham: Oopd...

IntLibber Brautigan: they also have a mechanism by which contractees can register their contracts

Ashcroft Burnham: *Oops...

IntLibber Brautigan: http://cep.metropipe.net/

Michel Manen: Thank you intillber.

Michel Manen: Ash item 12?

Ashcroft Burnham: Sorry for interrupting :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Replying briefly
to that last comment, the idea of the local government tools is to
enable all sorts of self-governing communities to spring up, from
conventional governments to the anarcho-capitalist systems described
oin the protocols. It's all about choice :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: As Michel said, we are coming to the end of what we have time for, even though there are discussion items outstanding.

Ashcroft Burnham: The meeting has taken rather longer than we predicted :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: We shall have to have another meeting at another time to deal with them - watch out for group notices.

push restrict: Automatic avatar position locker active.

push restrict: Automatic avatar position locker active.

Ashcroft Burnham: Before we move to
open discussion, however, I'll raise the point in item no. 11 briefly
(I'll raise it again at the next meeting)...

Ashcroft Burnham: Can anybody here
think of any other benefits of local government that aren't listed on
the agenda or mentioned in the "benefits of local government" document
available in the flipchart?

Michel Manen: Any furhter questions or comments?

Michel Manen: well in this case

Michel Manen: Ralph?

Ralph Radius: I have a general comment on the value of government in virtual worlds.

Ralph Radius: If users of virtual
worlds can?t manage our own affairs then someone -- or something --
else will. We might be managed by over restrictive software, external
governments or the owners of the virtual world. This will get clearer
as more and more people interact. SL is effectively the size of a small
city now. Imagine the chaos if there were actually millions of people
interacting on a daily basis without effective systems for settling
their disputes.

Ashcroft Burnham: :-D

Ralph Radius: I think that virtual
worlds will be limited in their complexity, size, or freedom until good
systems of local governance can be set up. I think we are looking at
problems which will stifle the development of virtual worlds if they
are not solved.

Michel Manen: Ash you wish to comment?

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you Ralph for your excellent comments: that really does sum up why we're all here very well :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Before we move into open discussion, I'd like to make some concluding remarks.

Ashcroft Burnham: (Although Ralph has already done a pretty good job of that).

Ashcroft Burnham: I'd firstly like
to thank those who've helped with this meeting again: Angel Fliuffy for
getting somebody to set up the venue, Haden Devisidero for setting up
the venue in lightning quick time (if you ever want an event organiser,
he's your man)...

Ashcroft Burnham: ...Kirsty Laval for making the wonderful flipchart from scratch...

Ashcroft Burnham: ...Angel Fluffy
again for doing the security (althoguh, thankfully, we haven't needed
his services this time - if only you were here for the last meeting :-p)

Ashcroft Burnham: ...Michel Manen for chairing...

Ashcroft Burnham: ...and, of course, all of you for coming along.

Ashcroft Burnham: We have had a wonderful turnout, and I know that there are lots of people who couldn't make it to-day.

Ashcroft Burnham: I'll hold meetings on a Sunday in future, when more people seem to be free.

Ashcroft Burnham: But we have had some excellent ideas.

Ashcroft Burnham: I hope to see you
all in the second part of this meeting, whenever that's arranged (look
out for group notices), and in the next tools meeting.

Michel Manen: Thank you ash. The floor is now open for any general questions or comments on any topic or issue discussed today. Anyone?

Ashcroft Burnham: I know that some of you hhere have already expressed some excellent ideas about tools.

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you all very much for coming along.

Michel Manen: Intlibber?

Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody who hasn't
already done so, please do join the "Local Government Study Group":
it's open enrolment, and there's no joining fee :-)

Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Davidorban Agnon

Ashcroft Burnham: And now onto open discussion...

IntLibber Brautigan: just to finish
my earlier comments, i suggest people read The Machinery of Freedom by
David Freidman, or The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson to get either an
in depth, or cursury, respectively, view of my ancap ideas

Michel Manen: David any thing else to add?

Angel Fluffy was very briefly going to
suggest some sort of IP-hash. So landowners/governments could ban an IP
hash (thus, banning an IP, or IP range) without knowing the IP or range
they were banning, thus, not breaking privacy. This idea is not new by
any means, but he'd like to make sure it is on he record :)

Davidorban Agnon: Speed of implementation of these ideas is going to be key

Michel Manen: Angel how do you see our work moving along from here?

Ashcroft Burnham: Angel - excellent idea.

Ashcroft Burnham: You *will* come to the next tools meeting, won't you? :-)

Angel Fluffy: *the record even, apologies for typos, lag is quite bad :)

Angel Fluffy: very likely :)

Michel Manen: do you have any comments on where we move on from here Angel?

Ralph Radius: Has there been any work done on a system to script these governmental powers?

Angel Fluffy: IMHO the major things
that need to be done from here are : 1) finishing up the details for
the flexible government system 2) getting high-level Lindens to LOOK at
the thing 3) justifying it to them in terms of their future goals for
SL.

Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, Ralph, they can't just be scripted because they need server-side asset control for enforcement :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: And trying to test-drive a government without enforcement is like trying to test-drive a car without wheels :-)

Davidorban Agnon: Angel: 3) is key!

Ashcroft Burnham: No. 3 is what this meeting is about.

Michel Manen: yes David ia agree

IntLibber Brautigan: Ashcroft, not necessarily, estate power is all thats needed

Ashcroft Burnham: Ralph's contributions on the matter are particularly helpful :-)

Angel Fluffy: IMHO there are some
things that are more important than others - e.g. scriptable estate
bans and such give a GREAT deal of functionality... as does the idea of
automated billing or erscow systems. Essentially, the Lindens are busy,
so if we want this to become reality we have to get a map of it then
focus on the most doable parts first.

Davidorban Agnon: Ashcroft: Server-side has a new meaning when anybody can set up a server!

Ralph Radius: Thanks Ashcroft.

Ashcroft Burnham: IntLibber:
interesting, although you'd still need an estate owner that one could
trust not to just turn the scripts off and resume full control :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, David :-)

Michel Manen: hahaha

Ashcroft Burnham: But that's a while away yet.

Michel Manen: yes intlibber indeed

Angel Fluffy: Ash: estate owners have pretty much full control anyway. They don't gain much from turning off scripts on their estates.

IntLibber Brautigan: well, thats a matter of caveat emptor: you pick who you buy land from based on whether you trust him as much as the price

Davidorban Agnon: That is the speed differential I am referring to, when I insist on measuring how quickly the new LG tools can spread...

Ashcroft Burnham: Angel: the *really* important bits are the bits that let governments be things other than monarchies :-)

IntLibber Brautigan: and estate scripted powers should be in the hands of estate owners and estate admins anyways

Ashcroft Burnham: Because a lot of government, monarchy style, is already possible on private islands.

Ralph Radius: It might be neat to prioritize these powers so that what was easy and poweful could be implimented first.

IntLibber Brautigan: actually, there are other possible styles

Ashcroft Burnham: IntLibber: the
whole idea of local government is to empower governments over
landowners, where landowners choose that governmenst shoudl be so
empowered, the choices being based on market forces :-)

IntLibber Brautigan: but any government that tramples property rights is tyranny

Angel Fluffy: Ashcroft: I disagree.
Currently, we have monarchy-style governments on private islands which
are 60% effective at dealing with security and contract problems. They
have some tools to do so. We don't have any viable democratic
governments - they have NO tools to do so. It is more time-efficient to
finish the last 40% for monarchies than it is to do democracies from
scratch.... simply in terms of developer time vs progress made.

Ashcroft Burnham: IntLibber: the idea is that market forces will weed out the tyrannies :-)

Ralph Radius: Are there no limits to "property rights"?

IntLibber Brautigan: There are viable democratic governments arising now

Ashcroft Burnham: And property rights aren't absolute, or else that creates tyrranies, too :-)

Angel Fluffy: at least if
monarchy-style governments were finished, we would have *one* truly
viable style of government in SL this year. If we insist on doing
democracies first, then we will end up with no truly viable style into
the future.

Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, an
interesting point, Angel. Just as long as the Lindens *do* get around
to doing non-monarchies in a reasonable time (i.e., within a year or
two at most).

Sngac Carter: i think that it has been proven that market forces do not a government make.

Robin Lobo agrees with Angel wholeheartedly

Ralph Radius: That's a good point. But what if the Lindens stopped at monarchy?

Angel Fluffy: I agree both styles as
options would be good - hell, a flexible permissions system for custom
setups would be better.... but right now, the Lindens seem pressed for
time/resources and so we have to concentrate on asking for things
strategically - ask them to make slight extensions to what already
exists - so we have maximum chance of getting things done.

Ashcroft Burnham: Sngac: there
hasn't been the sort of market forces that will exist in SecondLife if
the tools that I propose are implimented operating over governments
before :-)

IntLibber Brautigan: If I may comment

Ashcroft Burnham: Populations have never chosen, en masse, one government over another :-)

Michel Manen: go ahead intlibber

Stephane Deschanel: Ashcroft : OK,
islands have private owners but that's normal as well as islands must
be bought. So, owners but be kings of monarchies. It doesn't matter, a
monarchy as England is can me democratic also, no ?

Ralph Radius: Starting with monarchies might teach people some good lessons. It did in RL. :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Only if the monarch invariably does what Parliament tells her to do :-)

Stephane Deschanel: can be (and excuse my poor english)

IntLibber Brautigan: okay because of the mechanisms of the World Stock Exchange

Angel Fluffy: if they stopped at
Monarchy then we'd still be better off than if they tried to do
Democracy but never quite got around to finishing it. We'd only have
one style of government, but that would be better than none. An 'in
principle' monarchy can be an 'in practice' democracy (look at the UK!)
but the reverse is much harder.

IntLibber Brautigan: there are now busineses that are stockholder owned to various degrees

Michel Manen: Stephane?

Davidorban Agnon:
Ashcroft: that is a very important point. Many analogies with
traditional government powers break down if we take into consideration
the lack of constraints in SL, as food, or shelter.

IntLibber Brautigan: those stock corporations are buying estates

Ashcroft Burnham: It's really rather important that Linden Lab *does* get around to doing non-monarchies properly...

IntLibber Brautigan: and as those
corporations stock holdings become not controlled by one individual
holding a majority of shares, they become effectively democratic
systems of governance of estates

Ashcroft Burnham: One of the reasons that there are no viable democracies is precisely that there aren't the tools for them.

Michel Manen: WEll im glad to see we conclude on such a lively and itneresting debate and discussion,

Michel Manen: Thank you all for
attending and contributing to this Second Plenary Meeting of the Local
Government Study Group on The benefits of local governance

Ralph Radius: Agreed Ashcroft. Democratic governments are the main issue.

Michel Manen: The full transcript of
the meeting will be publicly available shortly. You will also be
informed well ahead of time as to the date and time of the next meeting.

Ashcroft Burnham: In addition, if
one person had to do all the bannings, for example, anything of any
size would soon break down because of the administrative burden.

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you Michel :-)

Michel Manen: To conclude, I would
like us all to thank Ash for the time and effort he has put into
organizing this conference and giving us a lot of material to reflect
on. Thank you, Ash. On this note, the meeting is adjourned.

Stephane Deschanel: hm right
Ashcroft... However, how someone who buy an island or another land
could give administration powers to another ? It would be difficult for
owners to accept that...

Davidorban Agnon: Thanks Michel, and Ashcroft!

Angel Fluffy: Ashcroft: yes, but it
is even more important that they do monarchies properly.... given that
you can (and people do) have a monarchy-like setup that functions as a
democrcy but a democratic setup trying to function as a monarchy is
impossible.

IntLibber Brautigan: I have 7 estate admins on my estate

Stephane Deschanel: Yes Michel ?

IntLibber Brautigan: no it isn't

Ashcroft Burnham: Stephanie: the detailed answer is contained in teh tools :-)

IntLibber Brautigan: I trust them all implicitly

Michel Manen: please feel free to continue discussiong informally these issues

Stephane Deschanel: :(

Ashcroft Burnham: Angel: perhaps the
important point is not which of the tools are more important than each
other, but that all of the tools, taken as a whole, are pretty
important as a set :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Michel: we already felt free, I think ;-)

Angel Fluffy: Ashcroft: I agree
entirely, I'm not talking about which is more valuable, I'm talking
about which we should push LL to put in place now, I'm talking about
which would be more useful, today, to ask LLto cosider.

Michel Manen: very well Ash... :)

Stephane Deschanel: I'm such a newbie in the group and I have to read lots of things, even if I have thought on those questions for a long time

Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, if one's individuating the tools, perhaps that's a discussion best left for the tools meeting? :-)

Stephane Deschanel: but where are this tools please ? Only in group notices ?

Ashcroft Burnham: I'll give you a copy of the latest draft, Stephanie :-)

Elspeth Guyot: Could I see a copy too please Ash?

Stephane Deschanel: Stephane, please lol

Ralph Radius: We need to give
Linden some pretty organized proposals. The less work for them the
better. The more the first tools improve things the better. The easiest
and most effective first.

Angel Fluffy: there is one issue I
really want to discuss at some future point... though I'm not sure this
is the right place. Are democratic societies in SL viable *at all*? I
have heard of one democratic project in SL, N.... berg... or
something... but IIRC it collapsed due to 'too many chieftans, not
enough indians' syndrome - essentially, it was inefficient and prone to
VERY harsh political in-fighting.

Ashcroft Burnham: Rats, I can't seem to give you a notecard.

Michel Manen: hahaha

Stephane Deschanel: Me ?

Ashcroft Burnham: Notecard giving seems to be broken, I'm very sorry...

Stephane Deschanel: Oh, no problem

Michel Manen: Yes yo heard right. Both ASh and i were quite involved in hte Neufristadt experiement. I stil am :)

Angel Fluffy: Is it still alive?

Michel Manen: DEpends who you ask Angel.

Michel Manen: I think so, yes

Michel Manen: Ash may have a diffrent perspective :)

Angel Fluffy: asking a question about
an organization's viability and getting a "depends on who you ask"
answer does not inspire any confidence at all.

Ashcroft Burnham: There, notecards are transferring again.

Angel Fluffy: Ashcroft: I agree, and the potential for greatness if they *are* viable is, IMHO, sufficient to urge developing the tools

Stephane Deschanel: It will surely be a silly question for those who know the group but is there a LGSG website ?

Ashcroft Burnham: One thing that I'd
say, though, is that one swallow does not a summer make: one example of
something going wrong doesn't prove that it can never work :-)

Ralph Radius: Sorry, I have to go. I think these sessions are very valuable. I'm looking forward to the next ones.

Angel Fluffy: Ashcroft: I'm just being a pragmatist - trying to get the maximum utility from the resources we have :)

Robin Lobo: thank you all for an interesting meeting, Ash, Michel for the well run agenda and Angel for the invite, good evening all

Ashcroft Burnham: Stephane, at present, no there isn't, although plans are afoot, I understand, to make one :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you, Robin, for coming.

Stephane Deschanel: oK I'm preparing one too

Michel Manen: The Community of
Democratic Simulators has had six democratic and successful consecutive
elections nad is in hte process of expaning to a 3rd sim. I think this
record is notewrothny nd worth working for to imporved :)

Ashcroft Burnham: Goodness. *Two* websites, eh? That'd be something :-)

Stephane Deschanel: about an approaching subject

Stephane Deschanel: but the project is more "global"

Stephane Deschanel: It would be interesting to make a partnership between us

Angel Fluffy: Michel: that's very interesting!

Michel Manen: well this is the issue of the interaction between local an nviersal goverment- a conference topic unto itself

IntLibber Brautigan: I'd like to say
that IMHO the greatest issue that mainland residents should lobby for
is to have the power to elect to make their sim an estate

Stephane Deschanel: yes it is

Ashcroft Burnham: Go on, Stephane...

Stephane Deschanel: I don't know (even without details) the goal of this group, I spoke with some members but the only thing I understood

Stephane Deschanel: is that you are working on local governments only

Michel Manen: well the two cannot be separated stephane

Michel Manen: to have local government

Stephane Deschanel: and in the virtual worlds only

Michel Manen: there needs to be coordiantion

Michel Manen: with the lindens

Ashcroft Burnham: Stephane: the goal
of this group is to devise proposals to put to LL for local government
in SecondLife, and then persuade LL to adopt them :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Angel - whether
democracies are viable or not in the long term can only ultimately be
tested by giving the tools to let people form them and seeing whether
they work out :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Market forces are the key.

Angel Fluffy: IntLibber: I doubt that
will happen.... because I would imagine that LL would like the mainland
to be a politically connected space - not a patchwork of private
estates. I also doubt it will happen because really... mainlanders live
on the mainland because they DON'T like island living. Do you really
think they will want to 'convert' over to living on a P.E? The idea is
very interesting and potentially VERY powerful, I'm just not sure if,
practically, many would make use of such a feature.

Michel Manen: and a universal government

Stephane Deschanel: yes, great ! We are OK

Ashcroft Burnham: The point about mainland sims and estates has been raised before.

Stephane Deschanel: I think LL is and will be a company so it won't want to give control to consumers

Stephane Deschanel: But I hope not and I want to work on that goal

Angel Fluffy: IMHO it might be
productive to ask one champion to come up with a list of problems and
code-based solutions for the toics in their area, then let the
arguments be heard for those...

Ashcroft Burnham: In the first draft
of the tools proposals, I had suggested an alternative idea of having
one sim, one government, and having mainland landowners elect their sim
government (or elect to have no government).

Angel Fluffy: e.g. in security, we
have the obvious problem that it is impossible to effectively ban
anyone now - given open registration and unlimited unverified accounts.

Ashcroft Burnham: I removed that
from the second draft because, ultimately, it contradicted the
principle of choice: that no landowner should ever be subject to any
government to which he or she has not chosen to be subject, either
directly or indirectly.

Angel Fluffy: or e.g. in contract
enforcement - you can't make people pay you money they owe as they can
always cancel their account and start a new one.

IntLibber Brautigan: Ashcroft, that problem is addressed by the market

Stephane Deschanel: Indeed Angel, that's a problem...

IntLibber Brautigan: if you don't like the government in your sim, you sell your land and leave, or work to change the government

Ashcroft Burnham: Angel - avatar
verificaiton (which can be done *without* Linden intervention) and
IP-hash bans are good solutions to those prolblems :-)

IntLibber Brautigan: but if you buy into a sim knowing what government there is there, its your own damn fault if you wind up not liking it

Ashcroft Burnham: Which problem, IntLibber?

Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, indeed :-)

Michel Manen: Intlibber i have a
question for you - how do you see the Security and EXchange Commission
you are setting up integrate intself into Ash's idea of an in-world
judiciary?

Angel Fluffy is simply suggesting that,
in order to work out what the LGSG should focus on next... a list of
problems/solutions should be drawn up, and we should focus on the one
that has the greatest utility / time_taken_to_put_in_place ratio :)

IntLibber Brautigan: the SLEC is a market oriented body

IntLibber Brautigan: like Underwriters Laboratories

IntLibber Brautigan: or Consumers Union

Ashcroft Burnham: Angel, an interesting idea.

IntLibber Brautigan: an exchange, or listed company, has to earn and work to keep the endorsement of the SLEC

IntLibber Brautigan: if it fails to meet our standards, we remove our certification

Ashcroft Burnham: Although, there
may be disagreements about the relative degrees of utility, and it may
be very hard to work out how much time that each would take :-)

IntLibber Brautigan: and notify the market accordingly via publicity

Michel Manen: what about enforcement? which dispute resolution system will it use?

Ashcroft Burnham: My preferred
approach is to put forward a comprehensive set of tools, and a
comprehensive set of justifications for that whole set, and presuade LL
to adopt the whole lot, whenever it is able to do so.

IntLibber Brautigan: we will have a commission through which people can file or appeal

Stephane Deschanel: I'm working in
a highly visited land in the "french SL" (a politic place which was
created to sustain Segolene Royal for presidential elections) and I
know that hackers are a very serious problem

Ashcroft Burnham: Breaking it down creates a very real danger that some bits might not be implimented at all...

Michel Manen: ah

Stephane Deschanel: The time I take to answer is too long lol

Michel Manen: Ash any comments on Intlibber is comminnsion idea for te SLEX?

Elspeth Guyot: I ahve to go, thank you all, very interesting discussion.

Michel Manen: SLEC?

Ashcroft Burnham: I mean, some of
the security-specific tools (IP hash bans, verification, increased ban
list sizes, better protection against client hacks) are conceptually
independent of (although useful to) local government, and can be dealt
with as separate issues.

IntLibber Brautigan: Second Life Exchange Commission

IntLibber Brautigan: yes

Ashcroft Burnham: But different bits of the local government proposals probably ought not be splintered :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you for coming :-)

Angel Fluffy: Ashcroft: I don't
pretend that such a list would be clear or easy to interpret, but I do
think that drawing one up might be productive in that it would at least
help to clarify the myriad of issues we face.

Ashcroft Burnham: I suppose that it's hard for me to comment on such a list without actually seeing one... :-)

Stephane Deschanel: Your ideas are very interesting Ash but we have to weight enough before LL make what we are demanding

Ashcroft Burnham: But perhaps that's a tools issue, rather than a benefits issue :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, yes, undoubtedly, it will take time.

Ashcroft Burnham: But all good thigns come to those who wait :-)

Stephane Deschanel: Indeed :)

Ashcroft Burnham: In the meantime, we can do other things. I, for example, make furniture. Would anybody like a hatstand? :-)

Ashcroft Burnham: Only L$272... :-)

The meeting closed at 15:9 Linden time
i></span><br />