Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi :)
Soul4sale Ferraris: well, if it isn't THE Gwyneth Llewelyn
Soul4sale Ferraris: nice to put a face with a bookmark
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi there, Soul4sale,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and you have the advantage on me, I'm afraid I don't remember if we've met before?
Soul4sale Ferraris: we haven't. i just lurk on your blog. haven't been in world long, and you got me up to speed on a lot of issues
Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I'm glad you think that the blog is helpful for *something* hehe
Soul4sale Ferraris: if you want to feel more symmetrical, you can find some of my stuff at www.metaversemessenger.com
Soul4sale Ferraris: i'm a RL local gov reporter, and i get to cut loose in here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry... finishing up some unrelated things while waiting :)
Soul4sale Ferraris: no need to aopologize
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I didn't know you wrote for the M2, lol
Soul4sale Ferraris: i'm drinking a beer and playing nintendo.
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, hello, Gwyn :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: I was just posting a message on a Linux help forum :-)
Soul4sale Ferraris: you a penguin, ashcroft?
Ashcroft Burnham: No. I'm a lion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe nice, Ash
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and LOL
Ashcroft Burnham: Gwyn, might I be able to rez an object here? I need to use a flipchart...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh... hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: do you have a slot free for a group?
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok... see if it works...
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: The flipchart owner can:
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: * Drop a notecard to the flipchart
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: * '/1empty' - empty the flipchart
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: * '/1show' - raise the flipchart by 4
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: * '/1hide' - lower the flipchart by 4
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hopefully it does!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You might need to set it to group too
Soul4sale Ferraris: i'm having flashbacks of watching county planners trying to set up tripods b4 a planning commission meeting
Kristy Laval: hi ash
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Soul :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hi Kristy!
Ashcroft Burnham: Hello, Kirsty :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Do take a seat. I'm just setting up your flipchart...
Kristy Laval: i am pleased to meet you
Kristy Laval: hi gwyneth, ash did speek to me of you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully only bad things :)
Kristy Laval: is there any good thing to mention?
Kristy Laval: lol
Kristy Laval: yes, good things
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm pretty sure that none whatsoever :)
Deanfred Brandeis: Nice getup, Soul4sale.
Soul4sale Ferraris: thank you very much. i had a lot of help
Deanfred Brandeis: brb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1 minute ;)
Ashcroft Burnham: (Still setting up slides...)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn watches
Deanfred Brandeis: Hi, everybody.
Soul4sale Ferraris: howdy
Deanfred Brandeis: wow, lots of packet loss in here
Ashcroft Burnham: Hello everybody :-) Welcome to the meeting. Thank you all for coming along.
Ashcroft Burnham: Please wait a moment whilst I finish getting everything set up, and then we'll be ready :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Kristy Laval
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Packet loss? hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm 6000 km away, and have 0% ;)
Deanfred Brandeis: just spikes occasionally
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is actually rare
Soul4sale Ferraris: i'm spiking, but i have a wireless connection
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah ok
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Kristy Laval
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, there seem to be a few spikes now and then hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn is also on wireless though
Ashcroft Burnham: Hello everyone: do take a seat.
Ashcroft Burnham: Sorry for the delay: it seems that group notices are down...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are? :-P
xyryx Simca: Try group notices again?..I just recd a notice from a different group
Deanfred Brandeis: Who is the meeting chair, BTW?
Ashcroft Burnham: Hello everybody who's just joined us... do take a seat :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, hi all :)
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll wait for the stragglers then start in a minute or two...
Ashcroft Burnham shouts: To the people outside: do come in! The meeting is inside the building. All are welcome :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello everybody who is coming for the LGSG meeting! The auditorium is on the Eastern side of the sim, on the SE island.
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha, thank you for the parcel message, Gwyn. I didn't know that people could do that...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe apparently they never kicked me out as Estate Manager here
Ashcroft Burnham: ;-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn makes a mental note to ask to be kicked out ;)
Little Gray: heh lucky you .. oh but for I could run scripts ... alas .. woe is me.
xyryx Simca: heheh! welcome!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Little Gray: i thought the meeting was at 5:00 am .. this something else?
Ashcroft Burnham: Little Gray: no, the meeting was always at 12.30PM :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Hello everybody, and welcome to the third meeting of the Local Government Study Group, and the second meeting of the LGSG on the subject of the benefits of local government.
Ashcroft Burnham: Touch the flipchart behind me, everyone, to get (1) an agenda of to-day's meeting; and (2) a detailed document with some background information.
Little Gray: oh .. yeah i was confused with the trade name law meeting
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Angel Fluffy
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Deanfred Brandeis
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Elwood Abernathy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to James Bringholf
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Stu Source
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to xyryx Simca
Ashcroft Burnham: We are very honoured to-day to have Gwyneth Llewelyn here, a leading SecondLife blogger and general luminary, who will be chairing the discussions.
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to James Bringholf
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Deanfred Brandeis
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Lem Skall
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Gwyneth Llewelyn
Flipchart v3 - LGSG gave you Benefits meeting agenda II.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll try lol
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Little Gray
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Little Gray
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Gwyneth Llewelyn
Flipchart v3 - LGSG gave you Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm spammy :)
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Lem Skall
Ashcroft Burnham: But before we start with the main discussions...
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Elwood Abernathy
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Ralph Radius
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Ralph Radius
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Sarastro Zauberflote
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Stu Source
Ashcroft Burnham: ...I'd like to say a word of thanks both to Gwyneth here and to the good people at Sunbelt software for, respectively, organising the meeting, and allowing it to take place on thier island.
Ashcroft Burnham: So, a round of applause, everybody, for Gwyneth and the Sunbelt Software people :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to RED Barnes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh my, no applause at all
Ashcroft Burnham: (It's "/clap")
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Max-Velocity now set to 30 M/s.
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Commands: /flyhelp to get documentation.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nooo I mean
Little Gray: /clap
Soul4sale Ferraris: /clap
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You should only thank Stu for allowing us to meet here
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to RED Barnes
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to xyryx Simca
Stu Source: You are more than welcome all.
Ashcroft Burnham: Now, Gwyneth, I'll hand over to you and we can start the substantive part of the discussion :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well I'm not sure if everybody attended the previous meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I, for one, didn't ;)
James Bringholf: Nor I
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'm wildly guessing that you, Ash, have some nice slides to give us some framework for the discussion today
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, indeed :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Before I get started on to-day's topics, just a brief reminder of what we covered last time, for those who weren't here.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why don't we start with those? Most of you have already found out,
Ashcroft Burnham: For those who were - it never hurts to have a refresher :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that by touching the slideshow display you get some nice texts from Ash :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn nods and hands the floor to Ash
Ashcroft Burnham: This, as the title of the meeting might suggest, is the second of two parts of a meeting series covering the benefits of local governance.
Ashcroft Burnham: As some of you may know, I have also devised some detailed tools proposals, which are now in their second edition. The meeting to-day is not for discussing those: that'll be for another day.
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Madeleine Fitzgerald
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Ashcroft Burnham: The last meeting that we had, we discused local versus universal government, and why local government is generally preferable to a single universal government.
Ashcroft Burnham: We discussed griefing and security, and how local governments can help to bring both security to the griefed, and fairness to alleged griefers.
Ashcroft Burnham: We talked about contracts, IP and other commercial benefits of a legal system, and how local governments could help to provide the sort of stability necessary for sophisticated commerce to thrive.
Ashcroft Burnham: And we discussed the relevance of local government to land, and how it could help resolve (both in advance and after the event) disputes about land.
Selkit Diller gave you Letter shooter rev.2.
Ashcroft Burnham: The meeting to-day will focus on the undiscussed topics: group organisation and asset sharing, self-regulation and external regulation, social experimentation and publicity and identity verification.
Ashcroft Burnham: We'll discuss those first, because they haven't been discussed yet.
Ashcroft Burnham: There will, however, be time to discuss the topics from the last meeting again at the end, for any of you who did not attend, or anyone who did attend, but only thought of something to say afterwards :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Ashcroft Burnham: ...and I've just realised that I forgot to upload the slide for agenda item no. 4...
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Max-Velocity now set to 30 M/s.
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Commands: /flyhelp to get documentation.
Ashcroft Burnham: Back to you, Gwyneth, for any questions on the organisation of the meeting before we get to the first new substantive topic :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh oh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, after you present your slides
Gwyneth Llewelyn: on each topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'll have a round of open discussion
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not sure if we should use the silly "Thinker's soapbox"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to get people register to speak
Gwyneth Llewelyn: have them on for 2 minutes
Ashcroft Burnham: Regulated open discussion - that worked well last time. Whoever wants to ask a question or make a point can come and sit on the stage :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and close if after a few people have talked?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In that case,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have a chair left,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: IM me if you wish to talk for 2 minutes ;)
Little Gray: kk
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you Gwyneth :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I think it's best if you, Ashcroft, introduce each topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and then we discuss a bit,
Ashcroft Burnham: Very well :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: then you go to the next one
Ashcroft Burnham: On that subject...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we discuss again
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and open the floor at the end. Does that make sense? :)
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Ashcroft Burnham
Ashcroft Burnham: Topic no. 4: group organisation and asset sharing.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, beginning at the end :D
Ashcroft Burnham: We discussed last time what might be considered the primary benefits of local governance.
Ashcroft Burnham: To-day's topics are perhaps less obvious benefits, but they are not wholly unimportant ones.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Could I ask a short question?
Ashcroft Burnham: Group organisation and asset sharing is one of the less obvious benefits of local government tools, but one that is capable of bringing a great deal of benefit to SecondLife
Ashcroft Burnham: (At the end, Sarastro :-) )
Ashcroft Burnham: If you have a look at the second item in the flipchart, you'll see that I've outlined in a little bit of detail some of the ways in which local governance tools can help with group organisation and asset sharing.
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Pelanor Eldrich
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll give an example here.
Selkit Diller gave you Paper plane rev 2.
Ashcroft Burnham: Suppose that a group of, say, ten or twenty people want to start some or other joint enterprise in SecondLife.
Ashcroft Burnham: Suppose that that joint enterprise needs land.
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Pelanor Eldrich
Ashcroft Burnham: Now, under the current group tools, they can make a group and buy some land between them.
Ashcroft Burnham: However, that is limiting in the following respect:
Moon Adamant accepted your inventory offer.
Ashcroft Burnham: the individual members of the group have a particular degree of control (or not) over *all* group land.
Ashcroft Burnham: So, there is no room for a group that wants to have overall control of a large piece of land, but let individual members of the group have full parcel priviledges over subdivisions of that land.
Ashcroft Burnham: That *is* possible using a private island estate, but there can only ever be a single owner of a private island estate.
Ashcroft Burnham: Now, if one has a *very* trustworthy person in the group who can act as owner, then that can work.
Ashcroft Burnham: But, in many cases, people might be understandably uneasy about trusting a single person with thousands of US dollars' worth of land.
matika Wombat accepted your inventory offer.
Ashcroft Burnham: What is needed is a system whereby, either on the mainland, or on private island estates, groups can establish institutions that have overall control of land on which individuals have parcel powers over subdivisions of it.
Ashcroft Burnham: A system whereby a local government can have power over land and where individuals can own that land under that government is just such a system.
Ashcroft Burnham: (The details of how it all works are a matter for a detailed look at the tools, which is for another day).
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: I hope that I've given some idea, at least, of the benefits of this sort.
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll had over to Gwyneth now to field questions on the subject before we move on.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Ash :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I have Sarastro on the list to go first....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyone else, please IM me separately
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Sarastro, you've got the floor... or the chair :)
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Conover's Ultra-Smooth Flight-Helper activated...
Sarastro Zauberflote: Sorry it is to laggy for the chair-. i´m old, but I try to stand for one wuestion
Sarastro Zauberflote: question
Ashcroft Burnham: ;-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: I heard that a local government has benefits- but I don´t see a reason for them- we have a ggod Law in RL- and that counts in Sl. Nothing else. Where do you see the problem witrh the SL law?
Ashcroft Burnham: I'm not sure that I follow the question...
Ashcroft Burnham: (Hold on...)
Sarastro Zauberflote: I want to know- where you see the problems which make you think governements are neccessary
Ashcroft Burnham: (Sorry for the delay)
Ashcroft Burnham: As I was about to say before I ahd to hand out a landmark...
Ashcroft Burnham: ...the premises of the question are contradictory :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: If any X has benefits, those benefits are necessarily reasons to have X.
Sarastro Zauberflote: I don´t see the benefits
Ashcroft Burnham: The overall answer "what are the reasons for X?" is met by saying "X has these benefits over not X".
Sarastro Zauberflote: I onlyx see problems
Mondrian Lykin: oh hey Robin
Ashcroft Burnham: And welcome, Robin :-)
Robin Linden: ooops sorry no wonder it wouldn't work
Gwyneth Llewelyn waves at Robin
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm Ash
Mondrian Lykin: eheh right :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: will you recap the benefits for Sarastro?
Ashcroft Burnham: Sarastro, the benefits are clearly set out in the notecard in that flipchart: we're discussing them one by one :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes
Robin Linden: something bad just happened. sorry to disrupt things
Sarastro Zauberflote: Thsat would be nice
Angel Fluffy waves to everyone who has joined recently. He's on the phone so he can't talk much, but he's reading :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww robin ? you're most welcome here, and you're not really disrupting :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, I'm afraid that that would involve recapping the entire previous meeting, and the entire meeting that we're about to have :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I meant just in this issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Sarastro ? you see, there is a slight limitation on Group land
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is no easy way that a *group* of people,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: can together decide how to assign other members specific roles
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *one* person can do it ? the Group owner
Pelanor Eldrich: Sarastro, if I lend you $L 10000, without mainland collerateral, how can I ever make sure you pay me back? Answer: local gov't with enforceable contracts.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but to have something that works ? and has some sort of democratic participation,
SL Exchange Magic Box white: SL Exchange - Delivered item Beginners' Guide to Second Life Notecard Dispenser.
Sarastro Zauberflote: I don´t agree
Selkit Diller gave you Paper plane.
Mondrian Lykin: we need some arguments then :)
Sarastro Zauberflote: I only see problems with this "democrstic participation". we have the law - that is enough - makjing a new law is not neccessary
Selkit Diller gave you Paper plane.
James Bringholf: Which law?
Robin Linden: Gwyn is the problem a lack of tools or a lack of consensus?
Sarastro Zauberflote: The RL law
Ashcroft Burnham: Sastro, the short answer to your original question is that that's the purpose of this entire pair of meetings, of which this is the second :-) Somebody asked that question at the very first meeting, to discuss the tools, so I drafted the notecard and set up this series of meetings. If you see a problem with the specific arguments that I've given in the notecard, or in the presentation to-day, then I'd be very interested to hear them, but saying in general "I don't see any benefits" when there's a notecard full of benefits doesn't get us terribly far...
Moon Adamant accepted your inventory offer.
James Bringholf: Which jurisdiction, Sarastro?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: perhaps some order please...
Ashcroft Burnham: BRB
Sarastro Zauberflote: Sorry - i did not know anything about the cards, when you invited me aome minutes ago :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sarastro, in some cases, we're talking about the way on how to "enforce" some things inside SL, regarding the tools that we've got. In other cases, we are, indeed, talking about "new laws".
Selkit Diller gave you Scanning Alien.
Mondrian Lykin: Robin: lack of tools, in my opinion. Consensus would follow
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deanfred has asked to be next
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please take the chair, Deanfred :)
Deanfred Brandeis: Concerning this particular benefit, I don't see how these problems couldn't more appropriately be solved by LL (or others when the server is open sourced) developing tools to allow land-owners to grant very find-grained access controls on their land.
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, indeed, if that was the only benefit of local government, that would be a valid point.
Ashcroft Burnham: Oops, you haven't finished - sorry :-)
Moon Adamant accepted your inventory offer.
Deanfred Brandeis: It seems that the benefits of local government should really be the ones that cannot be solved with SL tools already.
Deanfred Brandeis: np
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, indeed.
Ashcroft Burnham: But the tools that I propose (they are set out in detail, and will be discussed at a forthcoming tools meeting) will in fact tend to have these and other benefits.
Deanfred Brandeis: I agree that such controls don't already exist, but with an open-sourced server coming into view, we may see features like this easier to get included.
Ashcroft Burnham: The point of this discussion is not to list the problems that only local governance can solve, but all the benefits of local government tools.
Ashcroft Burnham: There *are* a number of benefits that only local government can bring: those were the "primary" benefits that we discussed at the last meeting.
Ashcroft Burnham: These benefits that we're discussing to-day are the ancillary benefits: benefits that are incidental to local government tools.
Ashcroft Burnham: They are, however, capable of being quite potent benefits.
Ashcroft Burnham: Given that there is a need for (1) local governance tools of some description; and (2) better goup land controls of some description, there is a reason to prefer any set of tools that integrates both functions.
Robin Linden: If I could point out also, local controls are the only long term option in our view. So it behooves us to figure out the best way to support them.
Ashcroft Burnham: The tools that I propose do indeed so integrate :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Sure. This could definitely benefit people. Only I think land-owners--at least initially--will be very hesitant about giving up ownership of their land to *anyone* else, even a government, to provide these benefits. I think most see control as having greater value than enforcement of finer-grained group controls.
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Robin :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Robin, how so?
Deanfred Brandeis: I mean, why is that a long-term problem?
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, Deanfred, that's why the tools that I propose have a range of different kinds of government, some of which enable landowners to give up less control than others :-)
Pelanor Eldrich: Surely Deanfred, this is purely opt-in for landowners and tenants. The default is the status quo.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Long-term, LL will have as little intervention in "SL as we know it" as it is possible :D
Deanfred Brandeis: Pelanor, certainly, but I'm only arguing it seems more solvable with technology than government.
Ashcroft Burnham: But, Deanfred, your second question assumes that only existing landowners will benefit from local governance. The issue of group administration and asset sharing shows that part of the point is that groups of people who do not already own land might want to come together and buy land between them: land that might not ever have been bought otherwise.
Deanfred Brandeis: Gwyneth, policy-wise, perhaps, but with the technology itself?
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: possibly, yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deanfred: possibly both ;) Who knows? :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok hmm
Ashcroft Burnham: In those circumstances, the issue of what control that "landowners" have over their land is not as clear cut as you earlier suggested :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't have anyone else on the list for speaking,
Ashcroft Burnham: But,a nyway, the tools allow a range of possibilities.
Pelanor Eldrich: Right Deanfred, the tools proposed are gov't form agnostic. You can easily build a totalitarian regime with them, it's up to you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if someone else wants to have their 2 minutes, please let me know
Ashcroft Burnham gets the next slide ready
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or else, we'll move to Ash's next point.
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: There is a clear distinction, I hope, between government owning land and land being under the jurisdiction of a government.
Robin Linden: In my view the problem isn't governance, it's enforcement of whatever rules the landowner chooses to put in place.
Sarastro Zauberflote: I have a nother question please
Robin Linden: And I'd love to see a more creative solution than banning as a means of enforcement.
Ashcroft Burnham: (Robin, hmm, I think that that's the same thing, isn't it? :-) )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Sarastro, let's have Robin finishing her comment, and then you again.
Deanfred Brandeis: Robin: fine-grained access controls
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha - Robin, look at the liquid escrow proposal :-)
Robin Linden: sorry...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sarastro?
Sarastro Zauberflote: Yes -. thanks. Could you tell me of waht tools you are talking?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think there will be a whole meeting for those :)
Angel Fluffy: Robin: like the ability to block particle emissions by no-pay-info-on-file avs (thus defeating much of the griefer attack problem)... or a per-region checkbox to disable self-replication (llGiveInventory recursive...) - that way artificial life projects could work but regions without legit self-replicating scripts could protect themselves.
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 0. Benefits meeting agenda II to Lance Foil
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Gwyn :-)
Flipchart v3 - LGSG: I give 1. Benefits of local governments in virtual worlds to Lance Foil
Ashcroft Burnham: Several meetings... :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Sarastro, do you mind if we go towards the next item for today? If I remember correctly, Ash has indeed made a long post with several suggestions on the tools
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... while Ash continues to the next step, is that fine?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: which I'll try to search for :)
Ashcroft Burnham: (I've already given it to him).
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you're the efficient one!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, next point then.
Ashcroft Burnham: This next topic is relatively short :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: As I said earlier, we're discussing to-day some of the more peripheral benefits of local governance.
Ashcroft Burnham: This is perhaps the most peripheral of all.
Deanfred Brandeis: (not at all; very important!)
Ashcroft Burnham: It's a little speculative, even, but it's worthwhile nonetheless.
Deanfred Brandeis: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: The point, in a nutshell, is that, if we in SecondLife organise ourselves to provide effecitve internal governance and regulation, enforce our own contracts, our own IP rights, make our own financial services regulation systesms based on local laws created by local governments created from the ground up by residents, then there'll be far less incentive for external governemnt organisations to see in SecondLife, and other virtual worlds, a vast sprawling anarchy just waiting to be regulated by it.
Ashcroft Burnham: And I daresay that everybody, or nearly everybody, perhaps, Sarastro ;-), would agree that we'd be better off with homespun regulation than government-imposed regulation.
Pelanor Eldrich: Ashcroft's 2nd draft of tools can also be found here: http://www.talksecondlife.com/second-life-law/970-governance-tools-proposals-second-draft.html
Ashcroft Burnham: We can't be sure that creating governments will have that effect, of course, but if what potential regulators see is a system already well regulated, then their motivation to intervene might at least be somewhat less urgent :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Over to Gwyneth again :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would just add something (ie. putting myself on the queue for speaking)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, remember the international nature of SL.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not sure that I'd like to have, say, China legislating on what Canadians should do in Sl :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or are +allowed to do.
Sarastro Zauberflote: I would
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (wb Robin)
Ashcroft Burnham: Gwyn makes another good point :-)
Robin Linden: thanks Gwyn
Lance Foil: What is they are in their own land?
Mondrian Lykin: well, norms must have some kind of background
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes... on the other hand, the Internet has a rather good reputation of "self-organisation on a global scale", ie. getting international organisations starting from grassroot movements,
Ashcroft Burnham: (Just like the LGSG :-) )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes Ash)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and then, nationally, "negotiating" to have them integrated into national law
Lance Foil: It should be like RL laws, go abroad and obey their laws
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A good example: in spite of everything, China *has* to abide by the ICANN to be connected to the Internet :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Lance, the problem here is that the international scope of SL (like the Internet) is not very clearly limited
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed. We, the users of SecondLife, should be at the forefront of setting our norms, rather than allowing others to set them for us :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye. Self-determination, home rule, etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice words used in the past :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why shouldn't they apply to us as well?
Ashcroft Burnham: But where "home" is defined in a virtual sense.. :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sorry, I'm talking too much already ? anyone would comment on this next?
Pelanor Eldrich: Sure
Deanfred Brandeis: I say keep RL government out of here. That is all. :)
Lance Foil: Its like Medieval England really, people rule their indipendant Sims, but the lands could be connected through something bigger
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Pelanor, you've got the floor :)
Sarastro Zauberflote: ?????? Keep RL law out??? How that?
Pelanor Eldrich: In order to have a micropayment interantional service economy, you need local self-gov't.
Gwyneth Llewelyn (will comment on that after Pel's finished)
Pelanor Eldrich: LL has no business interest in enforcing contracts and judging petty squabbles.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Pelanor Eldrich: Any transaction valued at less than $1000USD is not worth the effort to retain lawyers and have an international jurisdiction case. Which would, also, by the way, unmask RL identities.
Pelanor Eldrich: So we have to do it ourselves, or we can forget about the bulk of the SL service economy which requires enforceable contracts.
Pelanor Eldrich: (done)
Ashcroft Burnham: :-) Not strictly on this topic, but that does answer Sarastro's point very well :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to Sarastroi &
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deanfred,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we don't live in a legal vacuum
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we can't say "RL laws do not apply it"
Deanfred Brandeis: I'd like to clarify if I may.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure ? please.
Deanfred Brandeis: As I said to Satastro in IM: My point is only that while we are all subject to laws in our own RL jurisdictions, I'd prefer it if RL governments were not interested in regulating SL directly.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
xyryx Simca: As a preliminary step to the introduction of any form of local government, it would be useful to have a forum or group set up for each sim. An opt-out communication tool. This would give residents if there are indeed any problems that might benefit from escalation to some form of local govt.
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, Deanfred, that's the point exactly :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or better: *when* they decide to do the regulation (which they will, even if takes 30 years ;) ), they should "get a hand" from the existing, local 'authorities' that have well-planned structures in place,
Ashcroft Burnham: xyryx: that's a tools issue, really, rather than a general benefits issue. I'll drop you a notecard with the details of my tools proposals on them and you can have a look at those, and tell me what you think at the next tools meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and work together with them at another scale.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is exactly what happened with the Internet.
Robin Linden: Do you think that the mainland should have a different philosophy or set of tools than the island estates?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We had "grassroot" organisations working ? democratically even ? far before the first country ever established a single law 'regulating' the Internet
Ashcroft Burnham: Robin: I don't think that it should have a different set of local governance tools.
Deanfred Brandeis: Robin: It seems necessary, doesn't it? Someone is paying RL money for the entire sim.
Gwyneth Llewelyn doesn't think so, either
Ashcroft Burnham: The benefits of local governance shouldn't be confined just to the private islands.
Ashcroft Burnham: There might be some scope for, for example, a "Governor Linden" government for all the protected land.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah Deanfred ? again, an issue of "tools" ? a private island could, technically speaking, be co-owned :) It just doesn't work like that right now.
Ashcroft Burnham: I hadn't thought of how that'd work exactly.
Robin Linden: I ask because I think it's far more difficult to bring groups together for local controls on the mainland due to parcel level ownership
Ashcroft Burnham: There might also be scope for, perhaps, local governments either just on private estates or on sims of which they have the entire ownership having extra tools than others.
Robin Linden: We may find that there are groups with similar beliefs who want to share a means of governance, but which don't control contiguous areas
Deanfred Brandeis: Gwyn: Sure. I'm just saying that someone who's paying for an entire sim may want (and deserve) more control over what jurisdictions his lands may be under.
Robin Linden: is that at all a consideration?
Deanfred Brandeis: Mutual jurisdiction under non-contiguous geography is assumed, I think. :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, Robin, I don't know how much that you've looked at the tools proposals, nor how well those proposals integrate with the current technology employed in SL, but the design idea of local governments was very much that they need not control only contiguous areas of land.
Ashcroft Burnham: They were specifically designed to be able to work on discontiguous areas, too :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh ? of course, Deanfred ? I believe that Ashcroft already pointed out that the idea is not "remove control" to landowners, but rather to give all types of "owners" different ways of controlling their land. Ie. landowners having a sim might opt for a non-democratic, tyrannical, autocratic system if that's what they think will work best for their tenants :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Gwyn :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not a "one-size-fits-all" model, but a finer degree of "tuning" :)
Robin Linden: Thanks Ashcroft. I hope I'll have more time with them this week.
Ralph Radius: The ability to TP lessens the need for territories to be contiguous. Not the same as in RL.
Ashcroft Burnham: Choice is the backbone of the tools proposals that I have drafted...
Ashcroft Burnham: Excellent :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Gwyn: Except that in the case of island owners, the line between sim owner and land owner is blurred a bit. On mainland, the sim owner is LL no matter how much land I own in that sim.
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Ralph :-)
Pelanor Eldrich: Robin, the acid test is getting local gov't to work on the mainland. I'll be giving that a shot with existing tools on 1/4 sim if I can.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, Dean.
Ashcroft Burnham: Deanfred, even that might be worth considering changing :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* & agrees
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok hmm
Robin Linden: Can I sketch a scenario?
Ashcroft Burnham: Please do :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: heh, maybe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure ? let's hear Robin, and then move on :)(
Robin Linden: Let's say in 24-36 months that the mainland is "Second Life" and the experience is designed and behavioral standards set by LL
Robin Linden: There are some islands associated to this, but the vast majority are increasingly autonomous, housed on the Second Life Grid, but not subject to LL community standards.
Robin Linden: I think this is where we will find ourselves, so building tools for two separate constituents has to be part of anything we contemplate.
Ashcroft Burnham: That's an interesting picture of the future, Robin :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: However, what I'd like to make clear about the tools that I propose is that they're designed to be able to work even under a system where Linden Lab sets the community standards.
Deanfred Brandeis: Robin: Or we just assume that LL will assert further control over the mainland under (sounds like increasingly stringent) TOS.
Ashcroft Burnham: They're flexible: they can work in a fully autonomous open-sourced environemnt, or in an environment in which the world creator (LL) exercises some residual control.
Ashcroft Burnham: Now, assuming that, in the future picture painted by Robin, the degree of control exercised by LL over the mainland does not substantially increase, then there would still be room for, and a need for, the toolset that I propose.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
Ashcroft Burnham: The details, of course, are another matter: there might well be room for *extra* powers of governments on private island estates.
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: again, unless you know something I don't, an "open source server" does not necessarily imply an open source, interconnected grid.
Ralph Radius: Right Ashcroft
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... let's wrap it up on this point,
Pelanor Eldrich: Robin I would build the tools for the mainland and as close a copy as possbile for the private islands, realizing that the private islands will become open sourced servers not under governance of LL. At that point extra "island" tools will become available as the open source community develops them. They could (or could not) then find their way back into the LL Mainland.
Ashcroft Burnham: But one very important principle is that local government, with proper enforcement mechanisms, is not at all incompatible with simultaneous control of general behavioural standards by LL (the two systems can run in paralell), and ought not be denied to the mainland.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (lots of things to think about!.... hehe)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we tackle the next item? :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed.
Ashcroft Burnham: Let me find my slide..
Ashcroft Burnham: Rats. forgot to upload no. 6. Hold on...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Ralph Radius: We are taking about general tools for governance. They sould be able to most anywhere.
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha, now this is a fun one :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Social experimentation and publicity.
Mondrian Lykin: (is anybody logging this?)
Ashcroft Burnham: Again, the details are all in the notecard, so I'll give an outline, and open the floor to discussion again.
Deanfred Brandeis: I am mostly.
Mondrian Lykin: Ralph: great
Ralph Radius: I am.
Ashcroft Burnham: The development of local goverments in a virtual world is, more or less, unprecedented.
Ashcroft Burnham: It creates numerous opportunities for what is, in effect, fascinating social experimentation.
Deanfred Brandeis: to see socialism tried again? :P
Ashcroft Burnham: Forms of government unheard of in the first life, or varients of existing forms, could be tested, and perhaps found to be more effective than their first-life counterparts.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Oha oha
Ashcroft Burnham: Just imagine what sort of publicity that SecondLife would get if in it was invented a form of government entirely novel and from which first life governments actually learnt something :-)
Ralph Radius: I:-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: You mean waht you say?
Ashcroft Burnham: That is, perhaps, a little speculative to go so far.
Sarastro Zauberflote: A little???
Ashcroft Burnham: However, the mere fact of virtual world governments emerging would itself be a fascinating social experiment.
Ashcroft Burnham: The real-world media has *already* become interested in SecondLife legal systems.
Ashcroft Burnham: I was interviewed myself on BBC Radio 4 last year about the subject.
Deanfred Brandeis: Considering real life is not at stake, forms of government completely contradictory to RL are possible.
Ralph Radius: Any group would be free to give it a shot.
Sarastro Zauberflote: We need a good anforcement - very fast - not a social experimant
Ashcroft Burnham: I came here in the first place after reading an article on the subject in the New Scientsist magazine.
Ashcroft Burnham: An article on the subject has recently been published in the Americal Bar Associaiton Journal.
Mondrian Lykin: yes, well, governements already learnt something from the Internet, so maybe it's not so speculative
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Mondrain :-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: Oha - i don´t agree
Mondrian Lykin: Sarastro: really? :D
Ashcroft Burnham: If that is the media response to intial, tentative attempts at virtual world legal systems, such as the 2005 SecondLife Superior Court, just imagine the potential reaction to serious, lasting systems :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Professor David Post has written on the subject, too.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Could we listen perhaps to Sarastro's issues on this point? :)
Ashcroft Burnham: He believes that virtual worlds such as SecondLife need to, and eventually will, develop their own internal legal systems.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Well - thank you
Mondrian Lykin: Ashcroft: he's the man! :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn is very interested in understanding what exactly you disagree with
Ashcroft Burnham: It would be a fascinating source of academic research, too :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: And over to Gwyn...
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Sarastro isn't interested in the secondary benefits of local SL governments.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe, Sarastro just raised a disagreement with this notion, I'd like to know why.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Well - may I say one thing?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please do!
Sarastro Zauberflote: Well - we have - or want to have- lot´s of nations here
Sarastro Zauberflote: And they all have their own system and law
Sarastro Zauberflote: And it is nearly not possible to combine it in RL
Sarastro Zauberflote: And it wpon´t be possible here
Sarastro Zauberflote: And it is a work for the beste lawyers - not for us- we must create a basis for business.
Sarastro Zauberflote: And that can´t be a basis, which has strange basises to RL. The Crossover will be much harder than
Mondrian Lykin: one of Ashcroft's points was to have lawyers, judges and other proved law specialists to work on this
Sarastro Zauberflote: I need the intenational law here. And that stoill exists.
Mondrian Lykin: not the man of the street
Ashcroft Burnham: Sastro, that isn't really on topic, I'm afraid :-) We're dealing with the secondary benefits, and social experimentation in particular...
Sarastro Zauberflote: That´s the same for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok hmm
Deanfred Brandeis wants a turtlocracy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd have a lot to comment on that, on a personal base, but I'll skip it,
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Ash ? shall you move on to the next point? :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, certainly :-)
Ashcroft Burnham already made sure that slide no. 7 was uploaded...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, yes, identity verification :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh
Mondrian Lykin: identity verification is a technical issue though, mostly
Ashcroft Burnham: Striclty, not a benefit in itself, but an issue that needs to be resolved ancillary to local government.
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll be brief on this one.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A hot topic these days :D
Robin Linden: We have some major changes coming to identity authentication
Deanfred Brandeis: w00t! @ Robin
Ashcroft Burnham: If there are going to be local governments, especially democratic ones, people need to make sure that each actual human only, for example, holds one office at a time, and can vote only once.
Ashcroft Burnham: If people can create unlimited alts, that will be difficult to enforce.
Ashcroft Burnham: As Robin just said, LL are going to introduce some identity verification changes, although I don't think that the details have been announced yet.
Robin Linden: one idea is that you will only be able to authenticate one account.
Robin Linden: so you'd have to pick one, and the rest become less viable
Ashcroft Burnham: However, what is *really* needed for local government to work is a system of verified avatars, in which the system guarantees that each verified avatar is not an alt of any other verified avatar.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be a very good start!
Ralph Radius: :-)
Robin Linden: exactly Ashcroft. You'd only be able to have one authenticated avatar
Ashcroft Burnham: (By requiring proof of RL identity, which will be kept secret, to the identity provider).
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha, it seems like the LL system will suffice :-) Excellent :-)
Robin Linden: :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wonderful news :)
Deanfred Brandeis: yea!
Gwyneth Llewelyn checks off one tool out of Ash's incredibly long list ;)
Ashcroft Burnham: What I was going to say was that an outside provider was interested in doing it (and, in theory, it could work without integration into the software, albeit less well), but perhaps there's no need to go into that now :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "done" :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Anyway, given that, I don't think that there's much to add on this topic: over to Gwyneth for questions :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn would add that in any case this would always require a third party
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... any questions? I assume that most would be targetted to Robin, though ;)
Sarastro Zauberflote: it is not possible to control the numbers of accounts one has. Therefore it makes no sense for me to discuss it
Ashcroft Burnham: I was thinking the same, although I could answer questions on the importance of identity verification to local government...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sarastro ? imagine the following scenario.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can provide a third party with your RL data
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And they'd emit a certification based on that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And one avatar is tagged to that certification ("digital signature")
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In-world, you're still anonymous.
Ralph Radius: Having only one authenticated alt would help but maybe not solve all the problems. What if I pay friends to authenticate their alts and then turn them over to me?
Mondrian Lykin: Ralph: as Gwyn said, there will always be a third party involved
Ralph Radius: ?
Deanfred Brandeis: See "Ender's Game" for potential abuses of unauthenticated identities. :)
Sarastro Zauberflote: Ms Llewelyn- do you really think the users would do that? Most of them are not able to write their own names- where are you in? In SL?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's what happens iRL when you use your friend's or mother's credit card, Ralph :) One solution is getting a PIN number for additional validation. And if a friend of yours gives you access to all data ? identity theft becomes easy, right? You'd have access to their logins, passwords, money, holdings, everything ? all in THEIR name... and THEY would be liable for any crimes you commit.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be a very, very silly thing to do :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Very good suggestion, Gwyn :-)
Mondrian Lykin: the idea would be something like: the authenticated avatar can then authenticate with the 3rd party tool, using its data, and then he'd have access to the LG tools
Ralph Radius: Once I have an alt's password you own it.
Mondrian Lykin: if I undertsood right
Ralph Radius: You control it. :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Sarastro ? on the Internet, I don't give people access to my PayPal account.
Ashcroft Burnham: Mondrain, the idea would be that local governments would be configurable to allow different levels of access to authenticated and non-authenticated avatars :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And something techie like that, Mondrian.
Pelanor Eldrich: Thanks Robin, the identification/anonymity issue has been a thorn in the side of the CDS experiment. The alt problem makes democratic voting difficult. We're happy you're addressing the problem.
Mondrian Lykin: yes, ok, multiveled
Ralph Radius: Good points Gwyneth but I'm not sure that solves all the problems.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well ? identity theft *is* a problem iRL
Sarastro Zauberflote: Well - we don´t have to slve the problems of 2020. We have Problems now. And you are discussing a system for the ahole world - with China, India, USA- and us in "old Europe" -lets see, how to solve the problems we have now-. Linden has the tzask to do-he is forced by the law to do that - and we cannot waot for governmants and tools
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, absolutely!
Ashcroft Burnham: /nod
Gwyneth Llewelyn: however, it's much less widespread than the media likes to have us believe in.
Ralph Radius: When you control an alt all you control is that alts money, etc. Also many certified owners might have no interest in SL at all.
Deanfred Brandeis: Funnelling money to an authenticated alt that you control isn't difficult.
Ashcroft Burnham: Sarastro, there is indeed a place for interim governance arrangements before LL implement governance tools :-) However, we're not discussing those to-day: we're discussing the secondary benefits of the tools :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ralph, you're thinking about the "free alts"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm thinking about the credit-card (or Paypal) validated alts
Ralph Radius: I could meet a guy on the street and get him to certify. Then his alt is mine and I can vote for it as I wish.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, if someone uses a credit card to create an alt, and then gives the password to a "friend"
Robin Linden: Gwyn the plan we're working on eliminates payment info as a means of verification
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well... that's acting very irresponsibly
Robin Linden: I should say replaces it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it'll still be identity theft
Sarastro Zauberflote: Miss Llewelyn -. in Europe credit dards are of no woth - only a few people have them
Ralph Radius: VoAs the stakes go up so will the incentives to cheat. The stakes will go up as the $ rises.
Ashcroft Burnham: Sarastro, I live in Europe, and I have a credit card :-) Lots of people have them.
Ashcroft Burnham: Gwyn is from Portugal... ;-)
Mondrian Lykin: Sarastro: in 2007 almost everybody has one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, as a percentage of the overall population, you're right Sarastro.
Mondrian Lykin: even 18 yo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, lol, that's true.
Sarastro Zauberflote: They are of no use in Europe- and I don´t agree Mr Burnham
Mondrian Lykin: at least, almost everyone who uses Internet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But sure ? there are definitely other ways of proving your identity to a third party.
Deanfred Brandeis: no use to ppl who use the internet?
Robin Linden: Hmmm. I was just in Europe and I only used a credit card. It was easier than it is in the US!
Sarastro Zauberflote: You are making the second step before the first
Robin Linden: Can't use a cc in a taxi in the US, for example.
Robin Linden: And I did in both Germany and UK.
Ashcroft Burnham: Goodness.
Robin Linden: That's as an aside...
Sarastro Zauberflote: No Ms Linden- I can telol you later.
Ashcroft Burnham: Note to self: if ever visiting the US, take plenty of cash :-)
Mondrian Lykin: ahah
Ralph Radius: You need a way of making it risky for a verified user to to hand over an alt. Do Linden's methods do that.
Mondrian Lykin: only for taxis!
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Mondrian Lykin: Ralph: I wouldn't make things so complicted on that side
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. I think this deserves a separate meeting one of these days :)
Ralph Radius: I should be very afraid to give my verified alt away even if I never intend to go back to Second life.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm
Mondrian Lykin: I would make things complicated in the authentication process needed to level up in the LG tools usage
Pelanor Eldrich: Some US taxis take cc. I once paid $112 for a cab from SF to San Mateo by cc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we go ahead? At least i think it was clear,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that identity verification of some sort is important for local enforcement
Robin Linden: I think it would be foolish, because you are tying your RL identity to a SL account, and you can only do it with one account.
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed :-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: We have better ways to identify people - for example post ident. But do you really want to force a man in afghanistan to make post ident?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok ? let's go to the next item :)
Pelanor Eldrich: That'll teach me to miss the last Caltrain...
Ashcroft Burnham: And the next item is...
Ashcroft Burnham: Any other benefits :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Robin Linden: I have to go. Thanks for a good discussion...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for coming, Robin, and sharing the news :)
Ralph Radius: Bye Robin.
Ashcroft Burnham: This one is where I don't do much talking: I'll leave it for anyone else here to see if they can think of any other benefits that local government might bring :-)
Pelanor Eldrich: Bye Robin
Mondrian Lykin: good BYE goodbye GOODBYE byebye Robin!
Ashcroft Burnham: And thank you very much for coming :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: a) Government leaders who are fat, ugly, and sitting at home in underwear become sexy.
Robin Linden: cya
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, please, let's use the same method,
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: IM me if you wish to have a few minutes of the floor.
Mondrian Lykin: my god I never heard the sound accompanying this gesture
Pelanor Eldrich: I resemble that remark.
Mondrian Lykin: cya
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Deanfred Brandeis: heh
Mondrian Lykin: ok, I'll use cya
Mondrian Lykin: :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Soooo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyone? :)
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: Lots of other potential benefits, but too numerous, really.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deanfred, let's hear some!
Ashcroft Burnham: Your favourite three? :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: banning ad parcels :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a good one, yes.
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha, that was covered by "land" last time :-) Dealing with land disputes.
Deanfred Brandeis: Enforcing reasonable land rules that LL tools don't/can't do.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, better urban planning, zoned regions
Deanfred Brandeis: ah
Ashcroft Burnham: For those who want them :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: So all my ideas are old, besides fat naked guys being sexy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Pelanor Eldrich: YEAH BABY!!!
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, that'll definitely go on the next agenda ;-)
Deanfred Brandeis: hehe
Deanfred Brandeis: or fat naked women for that matter
Gwyneth Llewelyn: also... on top of arbitration, comes commerce (with enforceable law) ? and consumers get better defended
Ashcroft Burnham: Pelanor? Angel? Gray? Gwyn? Mondrain? Any other benefits? :-)_
Sarastro Zauberflote: How? Ms Llewelyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Sarastro,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the major issue of commerce in SL was pointed out by Pelanor a bit ago:
Deanfred Brandeis: the ability to determine your own level of sadism by becoming a brutal dictator?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if I have a contract for a few L$
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Sarastro Zauberflote: How will you make trade more secure? I have tried to create a system- but I don´t need a government for thstz
Little Gray: .. sorry .. im still stumbling over 'sexy fat guy'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and someone defaults on payment (or provides a fraudulent service)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: how can I sue them iRL?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is it worth it? For a few L$?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, local government, with enforcement mechanisms,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: can provide arbitration and mediation mechanisms
Gwyneth Llewelyn: whatever they might look like
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This means that contracts become enforceable as well.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that consumers can appeal to an organisation if they have been defrauded
Deanfred Brandeis: without free alts to hide behind, I agree, Gwyn :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As you all know ? LL's abuse report system does not handle commerce fraud
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Pelanor Eldrich: Sarastro: We have such a simple ecnonomy, I can buy a chair for x, or maybe put something on SL exchange. How do I properly contract in world for a mortgage, for a loan, for a complex build, for anything even remotely sophisticated like bonds, stocks, credit? You can't without enforcable contracts backed by local gov't enforcement. The whole financial sector requires it.
Ashcroft Burnham: Absoutely!
Ashcroft Burnham: Pelanor makes a very important point.
Pelanor Eldrich: You'll see, if Ginko ever takes the money and runs people will be *begging* for local gov't fiscal regulation.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, so the economy will complexify, Pelanor :)
Ashcroft Burnham: We have very *simple* commerce right now, because only simple transactions are enforcalbe with the simple tools.
Sarastro Zauberflote: I don´t agree Mr Eldirch
Deanfred Brandeis: I'd love to be able to stick some L$ in a bank for business reasons (guarantee rental refunds, e.g.) and be sure that it's not a scammer.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ie. instead of building casinos, you'll be buying futures on stock exchanges that transact casino shares ;) ) hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Deanfred
Ashcroft Burnham: With more sophisticated tools, one can have far more sophisticated governance, and make far more sophistacted transactions enforcable, allowing for a far more sophisticated economy.
Ashcroft Burnham: Virtual reinsurance, anyone? :-)
Mondrian Lykin: I am even thinking of the possibilty of the land owner of the land I have my office in throwing me out because he broke up with his gf and he's angry with the world
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, this might become "SL Economy 2.0" :) Far bigger than what we had so far.
Deanfred Brandeis: That waterfront insurance sure is high.
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL! We don't want that, Mondrain :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Gwyn :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, but Mondrain has a point ? this is what happens *now*
Sarastro Zauberflote: Well I don´t want to become a dictator Mr. Brandeis- but you say it is important to have a government to make the trsde more secure. O don´t agree to that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would be the alternative, Sarastro?
Ashcroft Burnham: Quite, Gwyn :-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: I can tell you , if you give me 3 minutes
Deanfred Brandeis: Sarastro, that was a joke.
Mondrian Lykin: Sarastro, the market can *not* solve everything
Pelanor Eldrich: Please, call me Pel, Mr. Eldrich is my virtual father.
Mondrian Lykin: that's why there are laws RL
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I'd like to have Sarastro 3 minutes on the floor, please.
Mondrian Lykin: ok
Mondrian Lykin: where are the darts?
Mondrian Lykin: :D
Ashcroft Burnham: Um, I don't think that she meant literally...
Sarastro Zauberflote: Thank you-
Deanfred Brandeis: LOL
Sarastro Zauberflote: First thing- we cant malke rools or tools witrhout obaying the RL-law- and there are many of RL-laws
Sarastro Zauberflote: And we can´t deal without obaying the RL law
Deanfred Brandeis is away.
Sarastro Zauberflote: and therfor it´s very simple, I think. We give the people the chance to make RL-contracts without loosing their anonymity here.
Mondrian Lykin: Sarastro: authentication is done on Linden Labs servers
Mondrian Lykin: you won't go around with your RL nametag on your head
Sarastro Zauberflote: They have to tell us, who they are, and the contracts are made in one office.and we offer them, to collect the money in Rl- if aomeone would not pay his contracts
Sarastro Zauberflote: Yes- but Linden won´t give this autentification to others
Mondrian Lykin: Linden will use the fact they have this new authenticaion tools for something
Mondrian Lykin: I don't think they like coding stuff "just because"
Deanfred Brandeis: Sarastro: Are you saying that this is really the only reason you see to have anything resembling a government in SL?
Mondrian Lykin: so I guess they're thinking of expanding their abuse tools
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd only comment the following ? that kind of thinking makes sense for business in the several thousand US$ (or ?) range
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But... these are using RL law anyway!
Sarastro Zauberflote: Sorry - if i wright and read - it´s heavy for a german
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (unless they're insane, lol)
Ashcroft Burnham: Gwyn has a good point, and so does Deanfred.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What about the micropayments, though? Small transactions average L$20 or so, according to LL's statistics.
Deanfred Brandeis: If I understand him, he's saying that he wants the ability to enforce anonymous SL contracts in RL without losing anonymity (unless, of course, you sue).
Sarastro Zauberflote: I see another reason that is a danger weith governements here in SL-
Ashcroft Burnham: There are *far* more things that local governments can - and need to - do than contract enforcement.
Ashcroft Burnham: And even in contract enforcement, they have the capability to be *far* more efficient than using RL courts.
Pelanor Eldrich: Sarastro, what is happening is what you are describing. The electric sheep company, and other large content providers contract for services using RL law, RL names and RL contracts for amounts greater than $1000USD.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly. Specially if we're talking about small-scale transactions
Deanfred Brandeis: I agree. I'd like a respected and fair judge with jurisdiction to get me the L$200 I paid for that crappy car back.
Gwyneth Llewelyn was just going to type what Pelanor just said. They are indeed.
Sarastro Zauberflote: I don´t agree, that they are mor efficent than RL-copurts
Sarastro Zauberflote: courts
Ashcroft Burnham: Why not?
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Ashcroft's question.
Mondrian Lykin: "efficiency" has never been a topica attribute of RL courts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, Sarastro, remember ? we're talking international law here.
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Mondrian Lykin: *topical
Ashcroft Burnham: Which is less efficient than national law :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
Deanfred Brandeis: I'm not sure that I would find "efficiency" to be a positive attribute of government in general anyway.
Sarastro Zauberflote: But where is the difficuklty, to do the same with small deals?
Mondrian Lykin: Deanfred: well, that's questionable
Mondrian Lykin: but anyway ;-)
Pelanor Eldrich: Well, let's be fair to Sarastro. We know how ugly and inefficient RL national and international law is. SL specific law is fairly untried.
Ashcroft Burnham: That's incoherent: for any goal that is worth acheiving, it is necessarily better to acheive it efficiently than inefficiently.
Mondrian Lykin agrees
Deanfred Brandeis: Ashcroft: No. Not if efficiency comes at the price of something of greater value.
Pelanor Eldrich: Oh, Sarastro here the problem with small deals:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm, in Portugal, if I sue someone for breaching a contract, I can expect 10 years for that to be settled in court, unless I'm talking about a multi-million Euros contract. Now suppose that I'm suing someone for a L$250 hair that was never delivered to me, from someone who lives in Indonesia... how long would that take, and how much would I need to pay?
Pelanor Eldrich: I loan you $1000USD in $L, you sign a contract and never pay me back. No collateral.
Deanfred Brandeis: An efficient government can become very efficient at doing injustice and slaughter, for example.
Mondrian Lykin: Deanfred: "efficiency" is a composite attribute
Ashcroft Burnham: Deanfred: I don't think that Sarastro was identifying a specific alternative detriment to balance against efficiency of governments in general.
Pelanor Eldrich: Am I going to spend $50000 litigating a case with lawyers in 2 countries to get back my $1000 after 2 years. Hell no!
Sarastro Zauberflote: ?????? inefficient??ß the national and international law???? More efficient than a new system - I think
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: I was responding to you, not Sarastro, though. :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Deanfred, then the goal (slaughter) is not worth pursuing :-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: You are talking about laws only for western states - but we have more here
Ashcroft Burnham: Sarastro - how?
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: Not to an irrational dictator.
Ashcroft Burnham: Sarastro - I have never talked about laws just for Western states.
Pelanor Eldrich: It's a matter of cost, not just efficiency.
Mondrian Lykin: Sarastro, how could you even think that a specifically designed system would be less efficient of an adapeted system?
Ashcroft Burnham: The laws will be *for* anyone.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps then the question should be differently worded ? how many people are willing to pay thousands of US$ for an efficient, out-of-SL system, to deal with a micropayment?
Mondrian Lykin: it doesn't make any sense
Ashcroft Burnham: And the tools will allow any kind of law.
Deanfred Brandeis: Gwyn: Yes, for me, it's a matter of cost.
Pelanor Eldrich: Right Gwyn. This is what there are so few people willing to lend $L to a non-premium account. Everyone takes the money and runs.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I'm sure that there are ways to increase what you spend in legal costs, to get switfter justice. But ? is it worth it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, pel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Pelanor Eldrich: *why
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shoulkd we wrap up? :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We've been talking for 2 hours now :D
Sarastro Zauberflote: Mr Lyinkiung- I think so, because THe adepted system has the syme problems internationally . than this system
Deanfred Brandeis: Yes, I need to eat.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe me too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ash, I believe that was your last slide?
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha, no, because governments would be administered within SecondLife just for SecondLife :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: No it wasn't :-)
Little Gray: wait .. i thought we were going to have an open discussion at agenda item 10
Ashcroft Burnham: No. 9...
Little Gray: er .. as long as we aren't wrapping up ..
Deanfred Brandeis lets his mind wander to ensuring that turtles will rule his land.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just on that other topic, Little :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Again, this one doesn't need much talking from me, since I did that last time. If anyone has any comments on the matters raised at the last meeting that weren't discussed last time (or even that were), then now's the time :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: I got nothing only 'cause I'm so hungry.
Pelanor Eldrich: Sarastro we all want to work within RL law. However RL law has not really addressed the matter of virtually property and taxation of virtual world profits. The area is quite new with fewer than 30 legal papers published and *very few* cases as national precedent.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Pel, let's stay on item 9. please :)
Pelanor Eldrich: sry
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Oceane Beauchamp: Well if i may add sth to the discussion, then i would like to point at the security problems immanent in the current password protected settings of your account. That's what made me think twice about adding CC information there, but did it at last. You can make way better authorities and identification, but this issue remains a problem.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Pel- that´s right. but I think one casn´t solve it by a new system
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha, that's more an issue for LL than the LGSG, I think :-)
Pelanor Eldrich: reading previous meeting transcript.
Ashcroft Burnham: Sarastro: what's stopping us?
Mondrian Lykin: Ocean: we I guess it's more.... what Ash said :D
Mondrian Lykin: *well
Sarastro Zauberflote: We have other actual problems I think, than to solve the international law problems of RL
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: I do think it's also interesting that this may be the first time that truly competing governments has been tried.
Ashcroft Burnham: Deanfred: indeed :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we jumped point 9 entirely, directly into 10? :)
Ashcroft Burnham: That is very interesting.
Ashcroft Burnham: All part of the social experimentation thing...
Deanfred Brandeis: true
Ashcroft Burnham: Anything from the previous meeting, anyone? :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Ayn Rand would be very mad at me. :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll take that as a "no", then... :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, point 10.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Deanfred Brandeis: The previous meeting was awesome. I was not there.
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, thank you everybody for coming :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Deanfred: I'm sure that there was no causal connexion implied there :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: In a moment, we'll open it up to general open discussion.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Thank you very much
Ashcroft Burnham: But before we do, one or two words.
Deanfred Brandeis: Ashcroft: You wanna take this outside? :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Little is the first to have asked for the floor for a bit...
Ashcroft Burnham: ;-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So let's hear Little for a bit, please!
Little Gray: thank you
Little Gray: I have concerns that multiple governments, unbound to a single resident run authority, will not adequately address our needs for resident to resident dispute reslution mechanisms.
Little Gray: I'm not going to stand on a soapbox and bring these issues up now. I would, however, like to comment on a few matters raised today.
Little Gray: I don't believe its possible to escape external government regulation. The present iteration of SL is a CA business subject to state and federal laws. Governments created in SL are fictitious .. game governments ... and will always be subbordinate to RL laws and governmental regulation.
Little Gray: A SL government is essentially an 'unincorporated association'. I doubt residents would license their governments in RL in compliance with applicable regulations concerning business entites and unincorporate associations. They wouldn't have the power to enforce contracts in RL. Generally only legal parties to a contract can enforce the contract.
Little Gray: For all practical purposes, a SL government is a non-legal entity. If residents have a dispute with another resident, they are going to rely on RL laws and principles to interpret whatever contractual rights might be created by their local government(s).
Little Gray: Any government restricting an AV's contract rights with LL could face serious liability. Governments would need to be legal entities in order for teir to be any accountablity for injuries caused by a government.
Little Gray: Presently, any RL litigation between residents would most likely necessitate the involvement of LL, at least to the extent necessary to ascertain the RL identity of the other party. Perhaps government tools could avoid this necessity.
Little Gray: So how do we make it easier for residents to resolve resident to resident disputes fairly for residents who cannot afford to bring their claims in RL courts?
Ashcroft Burnham: Finished? :-)
Little Gray: Government tools need to recognize that RL laws are applicable to resident to resident disputes, even if the amount in controversy doesn't justify RL litigation. They need to focus on clarifying and facilitating the application of RL principles to resident disputes. E.G. 'contracting tools' to facilitate private agrements between residents, identify validation, exectuion tools to make contracts legally enforceable according to RL terms and principles, etc.
Little Gray: All governments are not created equal; some will be more capable than others. Should they all have the same level of enforcement? Would LL apreciate dealing with multiple different governments?
Little Gray: sorry .. for that .. yeah .. sorta .. nope not really but that's all i wrote, Ash
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, right.
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: how many chapters?
Ashcroft Burnham: Now, let me deal with each of those one by one.
Ashcroft Burnham: Hold on...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft let's hear Little, please.
Sarastro Zauberflote: I agree
Ashcroft Burnham: I think, Gray, that you're slightly misunderstanding the ultimate goal of local governments here.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Mr Gray
Ashcroft Burnham: The point is not to supplant RL government, but to supplement it.
Little Gray: I really think Sarastro is right
Ashcroft Burnham: Of course we can't disapply RL law by making our own, but we can discourage extra regulation.
Little Gray: and I would very much like to hear if Robin has thorughts on dealing with one resident run govt. versus many
Sarastro Zauberflote: If I only could speak english so well
Ashcroft Burnham: SL governments are not "fictitious" any more than SL businesses are fictitious.
Ashcroft Burnham: SL governments are institutions that enforce SL-created rules by SL enforcement mechanisms.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Ohhh -
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dein Englisch ist aber nun wirklich gut, Sarastro ;)
Ashcroft Burnham: They do not purport to tell people what their FL legal rights or duties are, nor do they purport to interact with FL enforcement mechanisms.
Sarastro Zauberflote: You could have helped me :-))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I only read your profile now, Sarastro!)
Ashcroft Burnham: They are designed to be systems whereby communities in SL can form that have their own rules, as to contracts and virtual land and intellectual property, and enforce those rules, without having, in every instance, to rely on what is for virtual worlds the vastly expensive and unpredictable route of enforcing the uncertain RL legal rights that arise in relation to virtual goods, etc.
Sarastro Zauberflote: It´s from my Translater :-(((
Deanfred Brandeis: Didn't we also discuss at a previous meeting the idea of SL governments being similar to agreements between parties to settle disputes in mediation (SL govt) instead of RL court?
Ashcroft Burnham: It is useful to have mechanisms whereby, if people break community-created rules in SL communities, then they can face SL-specific punishments.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd also add something to Little's objections, if I may...
Little Gray: fire away honey
Gwyneth Llewelyn: after Ashcroft is finished, though :)
There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
Ashcroft Burnham: There is nothing to stop communities of essentially international groups of people, many of whom may not want to reveal their first-life nationality, from settling their disputes according to rules and principles developed exclusively in those virtual communities.
Deanfred Brandeis is away again.
Ashcroft Burnham: Being bound to follow RL law does not mean that alternative systems cannot run in paralell to it.
Sarastro Zauberflote: Idon´t agree
Ashcroft Burnham: For example, sports clubs have their own rules, and their own enforcement mechanisms, although all participants must obey the national law.
Ashcroft Burnham: There is no reason that a similar principle cannot apply to SL.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah, good argument!
Ashcroft Burnham: The idea of a single government versus multiple governments was discussed at the last meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn is not really typing, just SL thinks I am
Ashcroft Burnham: A detailed explanation of the benefits is in the notecard on benefits, that you can get when you click on the flipchart :-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: The sports clubs are onkly allowed to make riüules in the borders of national ruels. and they are only allowed in a special way
Sarastro Zauberflote: But we have no national law- e have 150 national laws here
Ashcroft Burnham: Sarastro, the "special way" is rather broad, and "within the boundaries" of the national rules means a system that is not inherently illegal, not a system that is identical to national law :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: The important point about RL law is that anybody may set up their own rule-governed system provided that it does not itself do anything illegal.
Mondrian Lykin: Sarastro: there are already criteria to establish what kind of national law must be applied
Mondrian Lykin: it's RL criteria and we don't need to complement that
Ashcroft Burnham: There is no law in any country that I've ever heard of requiring rule-goverend systems of all sorts to be idenitcal to national laws :-)
Sarastro Zauberflote: I´m a memeber of an international Club which has ony´ly a few laws - and they are enought for over 2 Million brothers i the world
Ashcroft Burnham: There's really nothing about, for example, banning people from land if they are adjudged by a SL-based court to have broken a contract that's prohibited by national law.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would probably try to underline some of the ideas that Ashcroft has presented.
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, I find it highly improbable that any national law would have anything at all to say about whether people are banned from SL land or not.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although we have no precedent for anything like SL,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have the Internet as an example.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also an international community.
Ashcroft Burnham: As for LL "dealing with" one government as opposed to many, really, I can't see how LL will have to do much "dealing with" governments at all :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: When it started, it was bound to one country... well, two really, TCP/IP was developed in the UK
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and without it the 'net wouldn't work hehe)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But soon grew over all national borders.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some things were (some still are!) very net-specific.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Examples: IP addresses
Gwyneth Llewelyn: DNS, to an extent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: USENET news, which these days are less used
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But definitely: all the protocols that regulate how the Internet works.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now... we don't use the word "government"
Mondrian Lykin: Gwyneth, can I point out an essential difference?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for the entities that "regulate" all those things
Mondrian Lykin: not to interrupt you, but I guess it's important
Pelanor Eldrich: Little Grey: I don't see LL ever dealing on a day to day basis with any resident run gov't whatsoever, be it 150 of them or a single SL wide one.
Mondrian Lykin: no money was involved back then
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure ? go ahead.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh really? LOL
Mondrian Lykin: SL has already money involved, that changes things a lot
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so the DARPANET was made with what? ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course money was involved. Tax-payers money ;)
Mondrian Lykin: well
Mondrian Lykin: the USERS weren't there to earn money
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Mondrian, the same applied to SL in 2003 :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But... we evolved.
Mondrian Lykin: but we'ew in 2007
Pelanor Eldrich: In those days there were very strong acceptible use policies forbidding, for example, selling via USENET
Mondrian Lykin: *we're
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, we evolved *much faster*.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very true, Pelanor.
Pelanor Eldrich: I'm preweb.
Pelanor Eldrich: ;)
Mondrian Lykin: it's not comparable though
Deanfred Brandeis: perhaps appropriate: Would LL need to get involved in assuring enforcement on non-citizens who commit "crimes" in another jurisdiction?
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed: because money is involved it is *far more* important to have properly enforcable rules, and serious justice mechanisms.
Mondrian Lykin: in my opinion at least
Ashcroft Burnham: Deanfred: the tools address that issue :-)
Pelanor Eldrich: Ah, Dean interesting questoin.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, there were lots of issues if your traffic to a commercial 'site' (before the Web days!) went through the US State-sponsored Internet... but well, that's digressing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, guys, forget LL
Pelanor Eldrich: No, LL wants no part of that whatsoever.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly as Pel said.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL wants to be out of it ? completely
Deanfred Brandeis: Also, Sarastro: There's nothing to say that some local SL governments wouldn't have only two laws.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that will happen much sooner than we think :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Deanfred :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Not if we think that it'll happen sooner than we think :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Pelanor Eldrich: So it'll be like RL. You have supranational bodies, like commonwealths or the UN, you have diplomats and you have bilateral agreements on extradition and law enforcement. Like Tranis Banklink list sharing.
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, *can* we think that something will happen sooner than we think - or only sooner than we used to think?
Little Gray: so, forgive the analogy, but, if each ISP were involved with regulating what their customers can do, wouldn't that undermine universal laws concerning free speech, and privacy?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL!
Deanfred Brandeis: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, ok, let me rephrase that. Any attempt to make LL be part of any mediation system in SL,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: will ultimately fail.
Ashcroft Burnham: No, since no law that I know of give anybody an obligation to transmit data that they don't want to transmit :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: technically speaking, free speech is not guaranteed on any private property
Ashcroft Burnham: If A doesn't have to transmit any data at all, how can A be forced to transmit any given subset of data?
Pelanor Eldrich: I'll say it in American: LL wants *nothing whatsofuckingever* to do with dispute resolution that doesn't involve their ToS or the RL law enforcement agencies.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we can call these entities "governments", but they're much more closer to "regulation authorities" with local scope ? user associations, with their own internal rulings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly like that, Pelanor ? loud and clear, for all to understand :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Free speech is about prohibiting the government from prohibiting it, not about the government forcing everybody to give everybody as many opportunitiues to say as many thigns in as many ways as possible :-)
Little Gray: Deanfred, can you clarify that? I thoughty I had a right to say what I want on my own property.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah Ashcroft ? I should use that quote on my signature!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But hmm Little
Deanfred Brandeis: Little Gray: You do, but not on someone else's.
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL Which bit, Gwyn? ;-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the issue here is not "forcing" people to be part of an association,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in fact, the right NOT to be part of ANY association is on the UN Declaration of Human Rights :)
Pelanor Eldrich: Frankly, it doesn't like AR and the FBI, but they are necessary evils. You see their is no financial gain to be had for LL to adjudicate disputes.
Ashcroft Burnham: Gray: my right to property entails that I can prohibit you saying things on my land that I don't want you to say, by throwing you off my land if you say them :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ash: "Free speech is about prohibiting the government from prohibiting it, not about the government forcing everybody to give everybody as many opportunitiues to say as many thigns in as many ways as possible". Most people get that completely wrong ;)
Ashcroft Burnham: I'm glad that you like that :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love it, it's exactly the way I feel ? but we digress again
Deanfred Brandeis: very libertarian of you all :)
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So there are several things here at stake:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) People should not be *forced* to use a system
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no matter how good it is
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. this will be strictly opt-out
Deanfred Brandeis: opt-in rather?
Ashcroft Burnham: Opt-in, actually, according to the tools that I've drafted :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Obviously ? for people wishing to participate in the "next stage" of a self-regulated SL, this will mean "opting in"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes sorry
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so by default you're on "anarchy level", and without LL to even defend your (very few) rights
Mondrian Lykin: when we have time I would like to make a proposal on tools we could use to carry on with the project
Mondrian Lykin: other than these great meetings
Ashcroft Burnham: I'd love to hear them, Mondrain :-)
Pelanor Eldrich: Sure!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) is the issue about the boundary between SL law and RL law
Little Gray: well .. in SL, im in favor of California laws applying to provide residents access to another residents commericial property for the purpose of engaging in free speech .. there is not way to effectively communicate to a patron's business (to tell them that what the business is doing is illegal or wrong, or other lawful purposes).
Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL law = regulations made by associations of users together, that self-enforce them among a group,
Ashcroft Burnham: (And the fact that that boundary is vertical, not horizontal)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aided by tools allowing that kind of enforcement.
Mondrian Lykin: ok, tell me when you're done with this discussion :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Can we at least call it "ungoverned"? :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Gray: you don't happen to be a lawyer practising in California, do you? ;-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe ok Dean :)
Little Gray: I would challenge any government that tried to take that right away from me as being unconstitutional
Pelanor Eldrich: I don't know, maybe Grey and the RL US lawyers have a clearer picture, but the SL/RL legal boundary is a bit unclear to me.
Ashcroft Burnham: Gray: you'd be the one who'd chosen to join that government in the first place :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: It's no different than if you rented a RL shop in a mall owned by somebody else who only allowed, for example, shops selling food.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) is simply to have enough established "local authorities" that they are made part of the grander organisations, set up at national or international level, that will one day regulate the way SL works
Ashcroft Burnham: Is *that* unconstitutional?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: like it happened on the Internet. Governments *still* talk to the ICANN :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or IANA, or IETF...
Ashcroft Burnham: And would it be constitutional for the government to prohibit people setting up such malls with such rules in yoru country, whose constitution protects the right to property?
Little Gray: if i were part of such a government, it would still be my duty to advocate for AV's rights under applicable laws.
Pelanor Eldrich: Here's a specific case I had in mind. Say I open an E*Trade brokerage account in RL and I took buy and sell orders in SL for $L which I then cash out. Am I breaking the law? I would be if the whole transaction was in RL without the series 7 financial credentials. What about offering investment advice in world, what about healthcare advice, what about legal advice. Aha....
Deanfred Brandeis: I would argue that it's law enforcement's job to prosecute a company for illegal acts, not to provide free speech on that company's property to out their allegedly illegal acts.
Gwyneth Llewelyn likes Dean's approach :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Pel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know what I've been reading today? US Gambling Laws :)
Little Gray: well .. we don't have law enforcement at the moment .. free speech is the only way to acheive positve social change here in SL .. that right should not be undermined .. it should be embraced.
Pelanor Eldrich: Oh, fun for you Gwyn. :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fortunately I'm not a lawyer and pretty ignorant about it,
Ashcroft Burnham: I'm not advocating undermining free speech :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Little Gray: Not at the price of private property rights.
Ashcroft Burnham: I'm advocating local governance tools.
Mondrian Lykin: Although free speech is not speech without consequence (quote)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but from a layperson's point of view, 31% of the resident population have to be put in jail :)
Deanfred Brandeis: Gwyneth: That's probably accurate b/c the US laws on gambling are fucking stupid.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... that's not for me to say,
Little Gray: they can't put me in jail here in SL .. im an alien .. they have no jurisdiction
Ashcroft Burnham: Gambling is a mug's game. :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Gambling is stupid, but making it illegal is more stupid.
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, no. But people can ban you, alien or not :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Deanfred. But we digress, I think...
Mondrian Lykin: ok guys
Mondrian Lykin: can I have your attention for 2 minutes?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but it seems that some things are pretty much "impossible" to do in SL, as long as LL's HQ'ed in California :)
Ashcroft Burnham listens to Mondrain.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seriously, I don't understand how they got away with it :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure ? Mondrain, the floor is yours!
Deanfred Brandeis attaches the floor to Mondrian's left arm.
Little Gray: lol Gwen
Mondrian Lykin: I was discussing previously with Ash the idea of a f-up of this discussions in a more proper collaborative tool to sketch out a collective draft of everything
Mondrian Lykin: giving the time and the chance to each to give their ideas
Ashcroft Burnham: f-up? We don't want any of those...
Mondrian Lykin: I found 2 possible suitable tools: 1) a wiki 2) a project management software
Ashcroft Burnham: I tend to favour the wiki...
Mondrian Lykin: follow up
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh :-)
Mondrian Lykin: :D
Deanfred Brandeis: wikis are easy
Mondrian Lykin: yes
Ashcroft Burnham: That abbreviated phrase can tend to mean something else...
Moon Adamant accepted your inventory offer.
Mondrian Lykin: they are
Mondrian Lykin: www.wetpaint.com is a good platform
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: Indeed. What was the intended meaning?
Ashcroft Burnham: Any views, anyone, on wiki versus project management software?
Deanfred Brandeis: actually, I'd prefer a forum
Mondrian Lykin: www.basecamp.com is the proj man sw
Ashcroft Burnham: Mondrain - would you like to set one up for us there?
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll put you on the "LGSG publicity" status :-)
Mondrian Lykin: Deanfred: a forum is a little dispersive
Pelanor Eldrich: follow up. Everything is so effed-up around here. :)
Mondrian Lykin: I think we have to produce a document
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Ashcroft Burnham: We've already produced quite a number :-)
Mondrian Lykin: not a discussion, we can discuss on SL
Ashcroft Burnham: What sort, then? :-)
Deanfred Brandeis: Mondrian, perhaps, except these meetings are pretty short to have a full discussion and debate.
Little Gray: if your gong to do a forum, then put each proposed tool in a seperate post and set it up so users can vote for or against each proposal
Mondrian Lykin: well, we can do both
Mondrian Lykin: and see which one is more suitable
Mondrian Lykin: I will set up the wiki and the forum
Ashcroft Burnham: Well, we need a Wiki with all the information on it: an official source of information, with meeting transcripts and tools proposals, etc.
Deanfred Brandeis: If we want true crowd-sourcing, let's put up the tool proposals on a wiki, though. :P
Ashcroft Burnham: That's separate to a discussion forum.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Mondrian Lykin: ok
Ralph Radius: I have a quick statement I wanted to make about Gwyneth?s solution to the problem of selling validated alts. t
Ashcroft Burnham: The idea is that people meet in-world to discuss, and send notecards in advance with their ideas.
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: Yes, but that's very rigid.
Mondrian Lykin: lgsg.wetpaint.gomc?
Ashcroft Burnham: Rigid can have benefits... :-)
Mondrian Lykin: ehm
Ashcroft Burnham: What's the .gomc?
Mondrian Lykin: lgsg.wetpaint.com ?
Ashcroft Burnham: Ah :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, that'd work...
Ashcroft Burnham: Is it free?
Mondrian Lykin: nothing, I was drinking and writing with one hand
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Mondrian Lykin: :D
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: Sure, except for ad hoc debate. :)
Pelanor Eldrich: Damn it Grey, that is one ugly motherfucking avatar!
Ashcroft Burnham: Is WetPaint free?
Ashcroft Burnham: We're having that now, aren't we? :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: There are always open discussion sessions.
Pelanor Eldrich: And I mean that with the utmost respect.
Ashcroft Burnham: But if people want to do things in more depth, notecards are the way to go :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*
Deanfred Brandeis: Ash: Sure, except by the end of meeting for two hours, I'm hungry. :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, then, tip: bring food :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: ROTFL!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe :)
Pelanor Eldrich: YEAH BABY!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn is hungry toooooooo
Ashcroft Burnham: Ohh dear, the battle of the noises...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Ralph had a solution to present, i think?
Pelanor Eldrich: ****A WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!****
Ralph Radius: I have a quick statement I wanted to make about Gwyneth?s solution to the problem of selling validated alts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pel ? hush, dear!
Pelanor Eldrich: **^^YOU'RE MY Type BaBY!!^^**
Pelanor Eldrich: sry
Ralph Radius: The buyer of a verified alt would have access to the seller?s powers over that alt and to the seller?s private data. For example, if I had control of your alt in your name, I could take out some loans in SL. And the RL police would come after you when I defaulted.
Ralph Radius: Connecting each alt to its validated owner?s RL data would make selling the alt even more dangerous. Lots of details to be worked out but the principle is correct and vary powerful.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly ? identity theft.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
Ralph Radius: Good solution!
Ashcroft Burnham: So, Mondrain, do you want to be our Wikimaster? :-)
Mondrian Lykin: sure
Mondrian Lykin: actually I just set that up
Mondrian Lykin: :D
Deanfred Brandeis griefs it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ralph, actually, I think that this system will work, because iRL, there are not SO many cases of identity theft as the media wishes us to believe.
Ralph Radius: It will work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. only very, very silly people will "Give away" the passwords for PayPal accounts, give PINs for their cards, write empty checks... etc
Ashcroft Burnham: Sorry, crashed...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Ash :)
Ralph Radius: Agreed.
Deanfred Brandeis starts the Free State of Black Jews, Turtles, and Unicorns.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Obviously, there will be fraud ? I'm pretty sure that if the risk is worth getting away with it, it'll be done ? but on a daily basis, nobody will "steal" validated accounts from friends to get some extra votes or such
Pelanor Eldrich: Grey, you are a lich version of Hunter S. Thompson's attourney.
SL Exchange Magic Box white: SL Exchange - Delivered item Gothic Pants "Tripped Fly".
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Ralph Radius: To me the problem is selling validated ALts not stealing them.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but that would be about the same,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or rather
Gwyneth Llewelyn: even more silly :)
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Max-Velocity now set to 30 M/s.
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Commands: /flyhelp to get documentation.
Ralph Radius: And here you are right on. Would I sell you my credit card?
Mondrian Lykin: anyway, the wiki will be under invitation
Auto-Teleport-Memory 3.0b (WEAR ME!) whispers: transfer'O'tronic free memory: 9701
Deanfred Brandeis: gotta eat; later all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly. Or even give me your PIN number to your homebanking system.
Ralph Radius: Worse yet LOL.
Mondrian Lykin: so we'll set up a way to have the interested one invited
Pelanor Eldrich: Thx Grey, just lost my appetite. :)
Conover's SuperSmooth Flight-Helper 3.0a whispers: Conover's Ultra-Smooth Flight-Helper activated...
Pelanor Eldrich: You must be an ACLU type from San Francisco.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's why I'm confident that, although criminal elements will certainly try to do that, MOST people will not risk it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
St Porno Girl whispers: Cheers from Studio 3D!
Object whispers: Cheers from Kitchen Kreations!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we adjourn?
Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you very much to Mondrain for volunteering to maintain the LGSG's Wiki :-)
Little Gray: yeah im on the board of the ACLU
Ashcroft Burnham: Before we do, a few final words, if I may? :-)
Little Gray: incidently, may I may an annoucement?
Little Gray: a quick one?
St Porno Girl whispers: Cheers from Studio 3D!
Object whispers: Cheers from Kitchen Kreations!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe sure :)
Little Gray: The ACLU is forming a RL chapter of the ACLU in SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wonderful!
Ralph Radius: I agree but the details must be thought out very carefully because as the stakes go up so will the rewards for dishonesty. A lot of brain power will be applied to breaking the system. :-)
St Porno Girl whispers: Cheers from Studio 3D!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Great news, Little :)
Little Gray: I am looking for people to serve on the organizing committee to vote for innagural boardmembers
Ashcroft Burnham: Excellent :-)
Object whispers: Cheers from Kitchen Kreations!!
Little Gray: please IM for more info
Ashcroft Burnham: Before we go, I'd like to say a few words.
Ashcroft Burnham: Judging by the attendance and the very constructive input, a goodly majority of the people here are keen on good local governance tools, and that's excellent.
SL Exchange Magic Box white: SL Exchange - Delivered item Buckled Gothic Pants.
Ashcroft Burnham: Robin Linden, the (rather senior) Linden who joined us earlier on had said earlier that the Lindens would pay more attention to a popular set of ideas.
Ashcroft Burnham: So, if we want local government tools, we'll have to work for them :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Publicity is key.
Ashcroft Burnham: We've had a goodly number of people come to the meetings, but, with a bit of teamwork, we can do even better.
Ashcroft Burnham: Michel Manen is our publicity officer, but he hasn't been available lately. It would be useful to have a number of publicity officers to share the work.
Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody interested, IM me :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: Mondrain has *very* kindly agreed to help to set up a wiki, which will be invaluable to promoting our cause.
Ashcroft Burnham: So a round of applause to Mondrain :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Mondrian Lykin bows
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Pelanor Eldrich: YEAH BABY!!!
Mondrian Lykin: Gwynet, check your IM
Ashcroft Burnham: If any of you know other people who might be interested in joining, do encourage them to come along.
Little Gray: nice job mandarin . .. http://lgsg.wetpaint.com/
Ashcroft Burnham: The more people we get interested in this, the more chance that we have of making it a reality.
Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
Ralph Radius: :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: If any of you are interested in helping to run and organise the LGSG, do send me an IM, and we'll talk :-)
Little Gray: er .. mondrian .. shoot that comes from not reading
Mondrian Lykin: anyone interested to join the wiki, IM me your email
Ashcroft Burnham: Anyway, any other ideas on publicity would be *very* welcome :-)
Ashcroft Burnham: It's very good that the Lindens are seriously interested in this group and its ideas: we need to persuade them that the governance tools (as we will come to discuss) are the way forward for the long term.
Ashcroft Burnham: We'd all rather, I'm sure, flexible sophisticated governance tools than the reverse :-)
Little Gray: hrm .. "Local Government Study Group Threatens Lawsuit if Demands Not Met" ?
Ashcroft Burnham: Hardly :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Ashcroft Burnham: It's a matter of reasoned persuasion.
Ralph Radius: LOL
Pelanor Eldrich: You've been chatting with Prok, huh? :)
Little Gray: "Local Government Study Group Formally Declares Indenpence from RL"
Ashcroft Burnham: The next thing is that the next meeting will be a meeting about the *tools*.
Ashcroft Burnham: I'll send out the latest draft of the tools again for discussion.
Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody with commetns can send me a notecard, which I'll distribute.
Pelanor Eldrich: I like that.
Ashcroft Burnham: Those comments will go on the agenda at the next meeting in priority over comments raised at the meeting, whcih will be discussed at the end.
Ashcroft Burnham: I don't have a time for the next meeting yet, but I'll announce that in due course.
Little Gray: i kinda wonder how this meeting would have gone down if prok were here
Ashcroft Burnham: If there are any particular times that are inconvenient to any of you, please let me know in advance :-)
Little Gray: i had a meeting the other day to discuss the Grid Sheperd deal .. we all just kinda ignored him/her
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe he'll comment on it, rest assured.
Ashcroft Burnham: (Gray: he was here for hte first meeting, the one that was disrupted by all the griefers. He hasn't been back since the agenda annonced that we had proper security ;-) )
Mondrian Lykin: prok?
Ashcroft Burnham: And finally...
Little Gray: but .. in the event he reads this (OMFG), the meeting was getting tired until he showed up and infused it with that tremendous energy of his.
Ashcroft Burnham: ...even if LL does implement the tools thiat we're hoping for, it'll take some time in coming.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it won't be "tomorrow" hehe
Ashcroft Burnham: What would be good in the meatime is some interim form of governance, using the existing tools as best we can.
Pelanor Eldrich: Prokofy Neva. = Prok.
Ashcroft Burnham: I have recently had some thoughts about such a system.
Ashcroft Burnham: Pelanor, at least, knows about it in a little more detail :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, i could comment on that, but it would be unpolite to do so ;)
Ashcroft Burnham: I think that I told Gwyn about the ideas, too.
Ashcroft Burnham: In essence, it would involve something a little like BanLink, but also different.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm possibly... ah well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: now it's my time to apologise, I really need to leave
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for coming :)
Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody would be able to get an auto-eject object, and put it on her/his land.